Buffy 15/10/02 Long sloppy word kiss-with spoilers

Cafe Society
41

LOL, Robot Arm, that’s priceless. :slight_smile:

Edwardina, I’m irked by Buffy’s lack of compassion, too. I’ve got a theory that it’s a demon, a dancing demon, no something isn’t right there…

No, I’ve got a theory that, since SMG hasn’t signed on for an eighth season, the writers at ME are working on making Buffy a somewhat less sympathetic character so that if she ends up being written out of the show/spinoff, she won’t be as much missed- at least not by the Spike Girls, and don’t tell me Joss doesn’t know we’re out here.

Either that, or she really, really meant what she said when as she was leaving, and he begged her to stay- “I think you’re worse when I’m around”. She needs Spike’s help, and he’s already made it clear that he wants to help, but she still wants to minimize the time she spends around him because she doesn’t want to watch him torture himself. It would explain why she never seems to go down into the basement just to check on him, see how he’s doing. I think I did notice just a moment of gentleness when Buffy grabbed Spike’s hand to stop him hitting himself- just the way she looked at him when she was holding his hand, just for a coupla seconds.

Oh, by the way, that torch? It was already in the library. The dude Spike was pounding on lit it before they started their lame demon ritual.

42

Leaping boldly into the “Buffy’s a bitch” fray…

Sorry, why should she show Spike/William any compassion just because he has a soul now? What has he done to deserve compassion from her? Conspire with Angelus to murder her? Attempt to murder her himself on any number of occassions? Kidnap her best friends, thus almost causing Cordelia’s death? Beating the piss out of her multiple times? Driving wedges between her and her best friends at Adam’s behest? Having sex with Anya and then telling Xander that he’d slept with Buffy too (yes, I know she told him to, that’s not the point). Attempting to rape her? The other heinous things he’s done over the last century or so to earn the name “Spike” (so-called because of his penchant for torturing his victims with railroad spikes)? Which of those acts should inspire compassion for his plight because he went out to Souls R Us and picked himself up something pretty? Personally, can’t say as I’m having any real problem with Buffy not feeling a lot of compassion for a monster, even if he is trying in his mad way to make amends.

43

I thought Buffy was being nicer in this episode. She’s not super friendly but she showed some concerned. She even told Spike to get out of the basement because it could be messing with him. Including her intervening with the self-beating, that was the nicest she’s been all season. (big weepy scene on the cross notwithstanding)

It feels more like she’s slowly warming back up to him. He fell a long way down on the list after the attempted rape. Buffy’s just dealing with the situation cautiously instead of open arms.

44

Now now, he has been nice for almost 5 episodes now-- alls forgiven (if your cute and english). :wink:

Actually I am sick of Spike as the cure all plot device. He is getting to be the deflector dish of Buffy.

I would like to see that plot point moved forward already.

Next week looks fun though. “I have to kill Anya!” Of course based on the misleading trailers for Buffy and Angel lately heavens knows what actually happens :rolleyes: .

45

Angelus did more to her, and the Scoobies, in a few short months than SPike did in years, and she showed him compassion from day one. Spike didn’t do any of those things you mention Otto, just like Angel didn’t kill Jenny Calender and arrange her tastefuly for GIles to find in his bed. And don’t point out she was in love with Angel, she felt something for SPike and had had some form of relationship with him for hte past 2 years. It’s not like he was evil, evil, evil, soul, wiht no “babysit Dawn time” or “help Scoobies time”, or “befriend Joyce time”, or “save Buffy time (twice)” in between. He may have done a lot of evil in his time, but he did more good w/o a soul than Angel did in the first 100 years of having a soul.
You can’t say “Why should she be compassionate to th bastard Spike?” when said bastard is dead, and what we have here is something else. Maybe becaues ANgel has two names it’s easier for people to distinguish between the two “personalities”? Would it be easier for Buffy if we named Spike something else? The Vampire with a soul living in the HS basement is not the same being as the vampire we’ve known for the past 5 years, and he can’t be blamed for Spike’s evil deeds and mistakes.
Either that, or Angel is responsible for everything Angelus did to Buffy including trying to destroy the world and murdering a member of the gang (two things Spike never did).

46

Quick Sidenote: Spike did try to destroy the world by reassembling the Judge. Death to all the righteous sounds pretty bad.

But in the same token, the Judge called Spike tainted because he had emotions or feelings for Dru. Angel was much worse because he had no warm, touchy feelings at all. Pure evil.

47

Well, Spike did assemble the judge, but from what I gathered, it was Dru’s idea. And you know, whatever Drusilla wants, Drusilla gets. Then of course, by the time it was actually destroy the world time, it had become Angelus and Dru’s gig.

48

Otto, The PTB have had Spike on the long, rough road to redemtion since S4. Granted, it’s been three steps forward, two steps back all the way- but even at the end of S4, after he realized that Adam’s idea of removing the chip invloved decapitating Spike, instead of saving his own sorry ass (and Spike is clever and resourceful enough, he could have found a way out of the Initiative’s underground complex), he fought his way through the battle and saved the Scoobies. I think the big theme in S4, Spike-wise was the conflict between his growing affection for Buffy and the Scoobies and the loss of his identity as the Big Bad. And in S5-6, he was lending his assistance in fighting Glory and the assorted MOTW’s out of love for Buffy.

And actually, Spike had some beautiful non-fighting moments outside of the battle, on those rare occasions when he let down his Big Bad front. My favorite was in “Triangle”, when, after some verbal sparring, he and Xander wind up playing pool and having a friendly chat about their relationship problems. And even when he was still evil, there was that scene in “Lover’s Walk” where he’s in the Summers’ kitchen complaining to Joyce about Dru having dumped him. (And Buffy and Angel come charging in just in time to stop Joyce from giving Spike the little marshmallows. That scene is right up there with the Spike/Willow interaction in the dorm room in “The Initiative” on my list of favorite Buffy scenes.)

And he showed true remorse for having tried to rape Buffy even before he got his soul back. In fact, it is more than fair to say that that moment was the catalyst that drove him to go and seek to regain his soul. I think saying that he “Stopped at Souls’R’Us and picked up something pretty” is going way beyond trivializing what Spike did- he had to fight to the death for it, and not just once- he apparently had to defeat a series of demons, then there were the bugs… he was looking pretty beat up and bloody at the end of “Grave”

So, yeah, I think Spike deserves a little compassion. I don’t expect Buffy to instantly forgive him for trying to rape her- that will take time, but the dude’s in serious psychic pain, largely due to having a soul where that cold, dead place used to be. And, hell, even in real life, I can feel compassion for some real assholes that I really, really don’t like a lot, if I know they’re hurting.

And as Angel was a fundamentally different creature from Angelus, I think soulful Spike is a fundamentally different creature from soulless Spike. I think the difference is, to the external observer, more subtle, because Spike was still capable of warm, fuzzy emotions without a soul, but he has changed on the deepest level a being in the Buffyverse can change.

Oh, and I liked his hair in this week’s episode. I hope he doesn’t go back to the slicked-back look. His naturally curly hair so so pretty…

49

I’m not saying that Spike is not in the process of reforming, or re-forming, himslef. What I’m saying is that based on his history with Buffy I don’t get why anyone thinks Buffy owes him compassion. Yes Angelus did quite a lot of bad things to the gang (which I mentioned in passing). That Buffy was/is in love with Angel is definitely a legitimate factor to consider in comparing the two situations. Maybe had Spike been a hero when Buffy met him and then went through an evil phase and back to good she and I might feel differently. But Spike’s been for all intents and purposes a monster for the entire time we’ve known him. Nor do I give him a lot of credit for being protector of Dawn Spike or questor for soul Spike, as his motivation for doing these things was primarily IMHO selfish. Watching after Dawn was a way to get in good with Buffy. Getting his soul back was supposed to be a means to the end of having a relationship with Buffy. Even fighting demons at Buffy’s side was largely about Spike being happy at having an outlet for his violence and aggression. It’s all about Spike getting what he wants, which as far as I’m concerned taints his actions and makes it perfectly legit for Buffy to still look upon him with scorn or at least without compassion.

50

Then why did Spike babysit Dawn after Buffy was dead? He didn’t know the friends were planning on ressurecting her. He did it because he liked Dawn or felt some responisibilty to look after her even though big sis was dead.

He is a vampire capable of forming emotional bonds. The Judge says its possible for vampires to do this, so I believe him.

51

First, comparing the gangs reactions to Spike with their reactions to Angel isn’t entirely accurate, because Angel started off as a friend and good guy. The first time they ever meet Spike, he’s trying to kill them. Second, except for Buffy, none of the Scoobies “instantly” forgave Angel. They were all suspicious of him, and Xander went as far as to enlist Faith’s help in killing him. They eventually came around, partly because Buffy championed his cause, and partly because they already knew that Angel with a soul was a good guy. They don’t know that about Spike. Like Sahjahn said over on Angel, “So he has a soul. So what? So did Genghis Khan.” Just the fact that they’ve let him live through the last four season is already giving him way more benefit of the doubt than he (or any vampire) deserves.

Finally, keep in mind that, as people watching a tv show, we can see the direction the plot is taking much more clearly than the characters in the show. Sure, it’s easy for us to say that Buffy should forgive Spike because he clearly isn’t the same person he used to be. But even if Buffy knows this intellectually, she has years of learned distrust and hatred for this guy that she has to get over first, and I’m glad they’re not rushing it.

52

Well said.

53

Am I alone in thinking that Buffy should drag Spike’s ass out of the basement as a matter of self-preservation?

I mean, here we have a wicked powerful vampire, who, while apparently still chipped, seems to be capable of ignoring the pain it causes him when he hurts the living, is bug-shagging crazy, and living in the basement of a building that is (everybody sing along, now) sitting on top of a freaking Hellmouth!!!

Oh, yeah, and the walls of said basement seem to be able to rearrange themselves, thus rendering the blueprints useless as a map, hello, supernatural force, maybe? And she knows that there is something down there that is screwing with Spike’s head.

Granted, Spike does have peroids of relative lucidity, but it seems that it requires tremendous effort of will for him to maintain his lucid state, and an emotional shock could send him straight back down the rabbit hole.

I say she should get him out of there, by force if necessary, before TETD persuades him that he would be helping Buffy by doing something truly awful.

54

I’m another who thinks the chip is on the fritz. When Spike stabbed the worm guy, he seemed to reflexively grab his head as if in pain, but his facial expression seemed to indicate shock, not pain. It seems he was shocked that he didn’t feel pain, IMHO.

Also Spike asked for the ability to give Buffy “what she deserves”. He got his soul in return. Does that mean Buffy deserves someone she can Love? And that doesn’t seem selfish of Spike.

55

Yeah, like that makes a lot of difference.

“I swear, officer! I was the one who shot this fella, but it was my girlfriend’s idea!” Sigh.

56

I’d like to point out Angel stopped being a pathetic wretch because Whistler showed him Buffy and told him he could help her. I believe some of Angel’s desire to help may have been attraction based.

Angel didn’t deserve any compassion. As far as “justice” goes he should have rotted in that hell and not been drawn back. IIRC it was the First Evil that retrieved him from there. Certainly not a ringing endorsement of one’s character.

Spike has shown he does good without selfish reasons even without a soul (the flowers for Joyce with no card). He’s a far better being, and always has been, than Angel. So objectively he is more deserving of compassion.

That said Buffy doesn’t owe him compassion or forgiveness. I think that she is being merciful though when she stays away from him. It just makes him crazier, at least she thinks so. Also as was pointed out she should be a bit wary of the now psychotic vampire who is intimately linked to the vampire who tried to rape her. No matter what the connection between NS-Spike and S-Spike and how much Buffy understands she has a right to her instinctive conflating of the beings.

Oh and about Dru leading Spike astray ya that makes him morally weak but not depthless evil. So yes it is still a bad thing but it is a different sort of bad thing than Angel’s “Hell on earth is a great idea! Let’s plunge the world into a dimension of endless torment and suffering.” That’s just plain deranged.

57

All I’m saying Jthunder, is that it’s difficult to know what Spike would or would not have been capable of up in S2 if Dru wasn’t present. Would he have even gone to Sunnydale if Dru wasn’t sick?
“Kill her Spike, kill for me, kill her for Princess…” Would he have been so hellbent on bagging his 3rd slayer if his “ripe, wicked plum” didn’t desire it?
Would he have re-constructed the Judge if Dru didn’t want it for her B-day?
Would he have helped Buffy in Becoming II if he wasn’t trying to get Dru back?
Would he have come back to Sunnydale at all if Dru hadn’t had left him?
Spike is love’s bitch, self-professed, and it’s clear that he would do anything for her. As a matter of face in Lie to Me, he let Buffy (and all the kids go) to save Dru’s life. He could have had Buffy, but it would have been meaningless without Dru there.
So, when I say that it was Dru’s idea, I’m saying that we simply can not know what Spike would have done w/o Dru. She was his motivation. I think in S2, we were seeing the Spike that Dru had created. Just like in S5/S6 we were seeing the Spike that Buffy created. (When she became his sole (heh) motivation). If all the good he has done can be discounted because he was motivated by love, does that mean all the bad he has done can be discounted as well? He mirrors himself after the women he loves.
What I am hoping desperately for is that this season we see a Spike who is simply Spike. Not Dru’s, not Buffy’s, not Love’s Bitch.

58

Not quite. It was the First Evil who claimed credit for bringing Angel back. However, the miraculous snowfall at the end of the episode indicated that it was a benevolent power that brought back Angel, and the First Evil merely came along for the ride. This has been confirmed and greatly elaborated upon in Angel.

59

Oh ok, I just recently got into Angel.

60

So, I don’t like spoilers, and usually go out of my way to avoid them, but I read one by accident today because there’s a news article over at www.tvtome.com called “keeping the BTVS website” that contains one. The article is mostly about how Cassie’s site in Help is real, but at the end they say that they’re keeping the site because Cassie will potentially return this season. So we may well not have seen the last of her yet. which made me feel a bit better about how it ended, not that I can figure out how they’d pull it off.