Finn, I have a feeling that you and I can continue to translate our posts back and forth in this thread and never, ever, crack that thick varnish which is SDMB-style conservatism.
Oh well, some people can’t be learned to save their ass.
Sam
SA, simple question: Say you had to move to Baghdad along with your immediate family, would you rather live there now or in pre-March 30, 03, Baghdad?
Other than that, I’d like to thank you again for proving the point made in the OP – you’re pretty much the embodiment of the prototypical Bushbot I had in mind when I wrote it.
Guess the only thing left to ask is when and how, exactly, did so many Americans get so stupid and/or plain delusional?
Bush Supporters Still Believe Iraq Had WMD or Major Program, Supported al Qaeda
::::::::shakes head::::::::::
How sad.
Agree with caveat: mighty long nap you’ve all been taking while just about everything your country once stood for slips right through your dormant fingertips.
As someone else mentioned upthread, this whole experience has given me a front-row seat as to how a whole nation can be manipulated into buying anything ideologues, with access to power, want to sell. Must admit, there’s something morbid and bizarrely fascinating in watching this whole process unfold. But, at the same time, it’s also quite painful.
Best of luck getting your country back on track…
I don’t know… I hope that SA realizes, with a (quasi)real world analogy, that he’s not talking about optimism, but a pipe dream.
Meebe I’m wrong.
No, it happened pretty fast, actually. I remember 2000, speaking to a Republican friend. We agreed it was basically a breakdown between likeable outsider (Bush) and intellectual insider (Gore). He liked the outsider, I liked the insider. I remember the 2000 debates when Bush and Gore were tripping over each other in a rush to agree on points.
Sure, there was a noise machine brewing. Sure, they were fine-tuning their slime and spin. They were busy solidifying power and making sure the rules were changed in order for them to keep it. The seeds of corruption were being planted. Sure, they managed to trump up non-prosecutable deceit under oath in a trial tangential to the function of the office into a perjury that qualified as a high crime worthy of impeachment. But Gore lost in a squeaker and it took about 3 or 4 months for the Bush ideology machine to really get cranking. NMD and the ABM treaty, calling off talks with North Korea, faith-based initiatives were the tips of the iceberg, meant to drive a wedge in the door to large planks of ideology in domestic and foreign policy. 9/11 just flung that door wide open. The vast majority of damage has been since then.
Eh, I’m a Jew. As a Jew (and a naturalized citizen), I have a Racial Mindset of “When the Going Gets Rough, Get the Hell Out of Dodge.” Call it cowardice, call it self-preservation. My wife and I are of breeding age and will have 4 doctorates between the two of us. We have a lot to offer any country who makes policy based on reason and observation, whose government is willing to work in an international community, whose populace holds its leaders responsible, that values human rights and uses its government as a tool for social support and justice both inside and outside of its borders. We’re reasonably smart, we can learn a new language. Sometimes, the best way to demonstrate a principle is from the outside. What America really needs is a culture that it feels threatened by, and not necessarily militarily. For too long, too many Americans have been able to convince themselves that they are not only military but cultural superiors to the rest of the world – world’s policeman and all that bullshit. If we can be a part of a culture that causes a good slice of America to perk up and ask “Why can’t we be like them?” then we would gladly be a part of that.
As another Jew, I just wanted to say this is a very stupid and dangerous as well as untrue statement.
It’s true for this Jew (and his wife). I view nationalist pride as something to be earned, not something occuring by default. I would also say that with a safety option now available (Israel), it is made all the easier. My grandparents left Lithuania. My parents (and I) left South Africa. And I am prepared to leave this country if I see the writing on the wall.
Also, I don’t think I was clear. The Racial Mindset thing was supposed to be snarky, tongue in cheek. Hence, addition of caps. In retrospect, I can see how that could come off as a bit abrasive.
On preview, ah, then I guess I was wooshed.
I can see your point – indeed the past four years seem but a blur in hindsight. But by the same token, I also think four years was ample time for Americans as a whole to realize that BushCo are anything but “moderates”…thus the ‘dormant’ quip.
As have citizens of just about any empire through history. You’d think we’d (humankind) have learned the lesson by now. Think again.
Are you suggesting that ‘brain-drain’ can accomplish that? Off hand, the only parallel I can come up with, is the exodus of top German scientists and intellectuals; but that was mostly after WW-II, right?
I’d be interested in hearing more.
Yes, the public should have woken up by now. But the majority of Americans haven’t had their life adversely affected, yet. But with every month of war and every new civil liberty restricted, these numbers will pick up. Your comments got me thinking last night. I can date the shift in my opinions based on debates I get into on overseas trips. For me, a lifelong Democrat who is reasonably moderate, the breaking point was during the buildup to the Iraq War. I can imagine that many to the left of me caught on before then; I can imagine that the majority to the right of me are still beginning to catch on.
The Jewish scientists left before (Einstein and Teller come to mind). Schrodinger left in 1933, returned to Vienna, but was forced out by the Nazis. Only a handful of scientists were involved in active collaboration – Planck and (according to some) Heisenberg actively worked against the regime from the inside.
In the US, it would be much more severe. American science depends heavily on recruiting the best and brightest from around the world to come work here, not almost exclusively on homegrown talent like in Germany. If America was no longer a desired destination, the decline would be steep and fast. Right now, American science has no problems, and still has more to offer me than anywhere else in the world. The NIH has paid for my education and I intend to stick around to at least give them a decade of work. But if immigration laws and restrictions become tighter (a surprising number of grad students I know have had serious difficulties with visas, and it is becoming noticeably tougher for them to come here and stay here), if the government starts to interfere in more research, and if the priorities of the country take away funding from governmentally funded scientific research, the United States will be quickly overtaken. Grad student and postdoc quality and quantity would decline, expatriates would repatriate.
If biomedical and academic research goes, pharmaceutical research will follow. That’s a lot of dollars put into the university system, and it could be quick – a decade or less – before Americans are faced with not being educationally dominant. What is happening in our primary school system could rapidly start to happen to our universities and medical schools. Soon after, Americans will be faced with the prospect that most innovation are coming from the best schools not in America. The best doctors, engineers, and scientists, will all be foreign and working abroad. Hence, the cultural fear and challenge that I think may save this country.
Yes, but by the time these people wake up, it’ll be too late. Then they’ll go “yeah you were right”, but that’s after they’ve been calling us “crazy hippies” the whole time we’ve been fighting against the system.
Ahem…we’re awake, and it won’t be us going, “yeah, you were right.” But it won’t be you guys, either. You’ll just slink off like Jeanene Garofolo, who told Bill O’Reilly that she’d crawl over broken glass to the White House in order to apologize to Bush if American soldiers were greeted with jubilation. They were, she didn’t, and now, with the press focusing only on the negatives (as always when it comes to American military action) and convincing everyone that every Iraqi resents our being there and the country is going to hell in a handbasket, she’s still griping and complaining. So will you when events prove your sky-is-falling scenarios false. You’ll either claim we got off lucky since our actions should have resulted in the sky falling, or you’ll just slink off and say nothing at all about having been wrong in your knee-jerk reactionism, just like Garofolo.
Wow, World Eater, I’ve heard of people repeating themselves , but not in one of my posts. How’d you do that? 
Gee, must have missed that. No doubt, you have copious documentation that we were met with jubilation. Certainly, you wouldn’t post such a sneering comment without such, now would you? Because of the likelihood of being called on it, like I am now. Calling you on it, that is. (Unless, of course, this is another of the things you have proven to the point of exhaustion, and simply cannot trudge over the same dreary landscape of irrefutable proofs and solid cites…)
Besides which, whatever Ms. Garafolo may or may not think is hardly germane, now is it? I don’t recall anyone here saying anything to the effect that Ms Garafolo is a standard bearer for anyone.
So, having appointed Ms. Garafolo our spokescreature, you then proceed to sneer at our opinions, as represented by Ms Garafolo. Rather a neat bit of solipsism, that. You get to decide who speaks for us, and then get to criticize us for those opinions.
And, of course, the issue of real significance is how the Iraqis view us now. As a for instance, the Ukrainians welcomed the German invaders with jubilation in WWII. It didn’t last. So not only are you asserting something you seem loathe to support, even if you were right it would be irrelevant.
If the great mass of Iraqis were to flood our troops with joyful and happy affection, I would not crawl across broken glass to apologize to GeeDubya. I would, however, be willing to stand on the other side of the Potomoc and let him walk to me.
You missed the vote, luci. Garafalo got 51% of the vote.
Not only did she win, she got a mandate.
-Joe
By the by, you really give away your game quite early on.
Better to leave the reader to discover that you haven’t the slightest intention of approaching the issue from any semblance of reason. Adds a touch of suspense. Albeit briefly.
I am ignoring this straight line with resolve and determination. I expect my reputation for restraint and reserve to be accordingly enhanced.
Why do I get the feeling that Starving Artist believes those roadside bombs in Iraq are actually jubilation fireworks displays that simply went awry?
That’s just fucking insane. I mean, batshit, out-of-touch-with-reality crazy.
SOP for these types, in other words.