Can subtle glances at breastas be considered a compliment?

In My Humble Opinion
181

Bick - Funny that. I’ve found myself glancing at my mother as well from time to time. Really disconcerting when you find yourself doing it.

I’m fairly nervous to enter any sort of “battle-of-the-sexes” discussions, basically because I agree with both men and women. I’ve grown up in a fairly maternal family, had two female roommates through half of college, and 75% of my friends are female. However, I am also a heterosexual male.

Yes, the argument has been progressing along the lines of “Do women like us looking at their breasts (in a business setting?)” “Most of us, no.” “Well, we can’t help it. We’re gonna do it anyway.”

Now, of course it is thoroughly unprofessional to be staring at a woman’s breasts while discussing the earnings reports for the fiscal year. I don’t think anyone is arguing this. In a business setting, when I’m speaking to an attractive woman, I have to very consciously think “Look in the eyes, look in the eyes, look in the eyes. If you’re going to avert your gaze, avert it over her shoulder to the floor, but do not, under any circumstances let your gaze glide over her chest.” Yes, it honestly is an effort. Yes, it goes very much against some sort of natural instinct.

And yes, I bet that even though I’ve trained myself, just from the fact that I am a male, I’m sure I’ve let my guard down at some point and did “the flick.”

Even with my girlfriend (and, OK, in this context it can be considered fine) but I’ve found myself deep in thought, and she’d say something like “so you like my new push-up bra?” To which I would answer (of course) “Yeah, it’s beautiful, honey,” but the truth is I had no idea my head was positioned in that direction. I was thinking about how the Cubs may be doing back in Chicago.

So Jodi, ice, et al., I would presume that you’d agree that there’s definitely an unconscious element to “the flick.” I would imagine that I’d feel uncomfortable, too, if in a business setting men kept on glancing down at my breasts. But isn’t there a bit of give-and-take on this matter? I mean, we are going screw up from time to time, and I don’t think any amount of social conditioning will eradicate this reflex completely. But I do think it can be curbed.

I’d be interested to hear if any women do “the flick” as well. I can certainly say that oftentimes I’ve been with a woman and she notices a physical attribute (breasts or buttocks) of a woman way down the street, long before I’m even aware of her. This is not necessarily relevant to the discussion at hand, but just out of curiosity I’d like to know.

I suppose I sound like an apologist. What I’m saying is, there must be some common ground on which we could discuss this without each side getting up in arms about it. So it boils down to two questions for me:

  1. Men - Do you really think you have as little control over your glances as you say? Do you really think it’s appropriate to be checking out a woman’s breasts in a business context? Do you understand how uncomfortable it would be to have your breasts checked out in such a situation?

  2. Women - Do you understand that when men say “it’s natural” and “they can’t help it” that they really believe this? (Not saying it’s right – to help understand mentality.) That an otherwise nice and respectable gentleman may at some point slip up and take a look?

Logically, the women do have the upper hand in this argument. But, c’mon, sexuality will always be present in some degree in any setting. Even church, for Christ’s sake.
Isn’t that part of being human?

182

Lord this is a long and heated topic. Jodi, I ask that you not totally leave the discussion, because in my opinion, this has turned into a semi-debate. There are still a lot of questions and points that could be made, I ask that you continue in the discussion, because I know that I personally have gained some insight into things that I never even considered before about women in general, and specifically in the office.

Now, that being said, I have a few observations/questions of my own. Forgive if I don’t quote endlessly, I think by now if you’ve been following the thread, you’ll remember some of the comments that I’m responding to, and if I mis-remember what someone said, please know that it wasn’t on purpose, and if you let me know, I’ll correct myself.

I’ll admit right off, that I’m guilty of “The Flick”, however, only under certain conditions. Mainly if the flickee is wearing something that shows off her cleavage, or is see-through. If a co-worker is wearing a polo, or other shirt that covers her completely, I’m not really even tempted to look, I know she has breasts, and when I first met her, I probably took in her whole body, so I don’t feel the need to make sure she remembered to bring them to work today. That being said, I can think of only 2 women I’ve worked with in 11 years that have consistently worn non-revealing attire. And you know what? I never did the flick with either of them…ever.

I’m sorry, but if 3/4 of the men you worked with came in every day with low cut shirts, or see-through tops with their nipples prominently in view, then you may have a foot to stand on when stating that women never do “the flick”. But that doesn’t happen…the way I see it, if you want to be totally treated as an equal, then dress the same way I do…dress shirt buttoned either all the way to your neck (you can leave off the tie if you like) or on casual day, either a polo with bottom button fastened, or short sleeved dress shirt with just the very top button undone. If you take a look in the mirror in the morning, and your bra shows through, head back to the closet and grab an undershirt. I have several dress shirts that require me to wear something under them so that they’re not translucent, but that’s expected of men.

Now right away, I want to make sure that I agree that those of you that do dress with nothing showing have every right to be insulted by the glances that you get, however, if you come to work with have your tits hanging out, or a top so loose that if you lean over at all, you’re flashing everyone, or so shear that I can tell if you’re an inny or an outy, I think you loose a bit of your right at being irritated.

And I’m not talking about tops that would require a guy to be on a 10 foot ladder to look down, but rather the ones that blatantly show off your assets. Perhaps as a test, some of the women here can make a list for a few days of what they wear everyday?

I guess what I’m trying to say is that while I agree that you have the right to be treated equally, that means in my eye that you dress the same too. When you’re at work, you’re not a woman, you’re an employee, and we should all be held to the same standards of dress. If you want to dress like a woman, then expect to be viewed as a woman, with all the good and bad things that come from that.

183

How many angels can dance on the head of a pin? How does this number compare to the number that can dance on a non-erect nipple covered by suitable business attire?

I think most of the female posters who have said “no, it’s not a compliment” have also chimed into say “we get that it happens occasionally and accidentally, just don’t do it repeatedly or obviously enough that we begin to notice it and wonder what the hell you are staring at.”

There are no workplace “eye police” who hand out citations for this sort of thing. “But I was innocently looking at the photocopier behind her! I’m just recovering from eye surgery! I can see her red and black lace bustier through her blouse! Officer, I swear!”

It’s not like that. It’s nothing to get angry over, it’s nothing that requires a reminder that men and women have been attracted to each other since the beginning of time, or personal anecdotes of women “in the fashion industry” hitting on men in the workplace.

Sigh…like Jodi, I think I’m out of this discussion from now on. She, delphica, Corrvin and others have said it all.

Oh, and here:

( @ )( @ )

:stuck_out_tongue:

184

I think it’s a plot - we are supposed to look at the ceiling or the floor, thereby running into a lot of walls and chairs and things, thereby looking stupid at work, and thereby not getting promoted :smiley:

Everyone who looks at another person (male or female) and doesn’t scope out the whole bod is dead or a liar.

185

Entertaining thoughts, all!

I think that although we’re learning a thing or two about the opposite sex, our original respect for the feelings of others might have already been pretty much on track - Work is work. I appreciate your capabilities and respect you for them. Hope to chat with you after work sometime in a more casual environment.

We’re not pigs, nor do we mean to be disrespectful. We are, however, always going to be a little fascinated and curious and we hope you don’t take it the wrong way.

Gals, please don’t slap me around for this butt I couldn’t help having this poem come to mind during much of the thread.

With apologies to Elizabeth…

How do I glance at them? Let me count the ways.
I glance at them to the depth and breadth and height
My eyes can reach, when feeling out of sight
From the ends of Playtex to secret Victorias.
I glance at them to the level of every man’s
Most quiet need; by sun and flourescent-light.
I glance at them freely, as men strive for Right;
I glance at them purely, as they turn from Left hook.
I glance at them with the passion put to use
In my old briefs, and with my boyhood’s faith
I glance at them with an admiration I seemed to lose
With my lost Dallas Cowboys,–I glance at them with the breath.
Smiles, tears, of all my life!–and, if you choose,
I shall but glance at them better after work.
toodle lieu.

186

If there’s a problem with a brief “flick”, I’d like to find out if there are body parts that are available for more than the “flick”.

elbows? (not very enticing in most cases)
knees? (as above)
wattles? (only on certain TV shows)
hands/fingernails? (well, maybe if lithe and super natural)
nasal passages? (who knows why these could be appealing)
eyes? (this version of the “flick” is even tougher)
navel? (no problem; she’s a fashion victim)
ears? (seen the mouse with an “ear” on his back?!?)
love handles? (eek!)
face (another toughie)

Sooooo…, why “flick” tatas? (well…, because they’re… um… uh… there)
this continues to be an interesting thread…

187

That’s it. I’m wearing shades to work for now on.

188

So if I walk up to the sexy number in accounting, whip out my dick and tell her I want to “make a deposit,” that doesn’t constitute harassment? Or, to diffuse the obvious “no, that would be indecent exposure” route, what if Clarence Thomas had ONLY committed the pubic-hair-on-Coke-can offense?

Have there really been NO harassment lawsuits filed or won based on a single event which (even temporarily) created a “hostile, oppressive or intimidating environment”?