Hmmmmm, I don’t know. I’ve always assumed that I actually know the goals of my actions, because I made them. I also always assumed that it is generally less easy to know the goals of others, because mind reading isn’t generally counted among human abilities. Are these facts new to you?
Now, if it’s so clear, then please explain how YOU know the difference. Tell me what you notice in the less-than-a-second glance that tells you that the goal of the glance was innocent vs. a boob-leer.
Retvim, I’m not sure what I can by way of answering “how do women know?” without repeating what has already been said. No one is claiming to read your mind. Since the question posed was “can subtle glances be considered a compliment?” we have on the table the concept that we know. How else could we ponder whether or not we think it’s complimentary (ahem, or not) unless we know about it?
Here’s a run down of the clues:
Is this as scientific as carbon dating? No. Is this part of the general dynamic of reading body language in the workplace? Yes. Is it foolproof? No. Do men admit to doing this? Yes. Are they invisible? No. Do we notice it? Yes, sometimes. Lather, rinse, repeat.
**
Umm, I think it’s clear we are not talking about the urge to stare but a quick glance. I’ll try to give you the benefit of the doubt that that was a mistake, and not trying to twist what I was saying. And sorry, but an urge that take less effort to submit to, WILL be submitted to more often, because humans are imperfect. Even if you expect otherwise.
You totally misunderstood or completely dodged the question. Imagine this situation.
How was this to be avoided? You can’t “look” before you look, right? You don’t know you are looking at a “bad area” until it’s too late, right? The damage is done, according to you.
Well, it looks like here we have a genuine misunderstanding, because I was indeed talking of a totally accidental look
Yes, of course men are going to glance at breasts, just by chance, for non-sexual reasons. Why the hell not? Now you are giving men less credit than they deserve. Surely you don’t think every tiny action of a man’s is sexually oriented? Christ, that kind of generalization aimed at women would cause me to be flamed down to the atomic level. I’ve been in situations with [GASP!] naked women and didn’t have sexual thoughts. Yes Jodi, sometimes eyes will be on your chest, and the person looking isn’t imagining boinking you.
Well, I have moved on to a slightly different question, and I apologize if I didn’t make that clear. The point I’ve been trying to make in my later posts in this thread is that totally innocent looks will happen, where a tit-leer isn’t the intent. And I hoped that guys wouldn’t be considered guilty until proven innocent in these cases.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Jodi *
**
So, you “just know” when it’s innocent vs a leer, and can’t explain how. And of course you are sure you are right, even though the vast majority of time you will never get feedback as to whether or not you were right. Yeah, I’m convinced.
I look at women’s breasts. If I think a woman might catch me looking (like she’s less than 20 feet away) and that looking would make her uncomfortable, I won’t deliberately look. However, sometimes I’ll be thinking about something else, when I realize that my eyes, seemingly on their own, have gravitated to a pair of breasts. If the situation is inappropriate for breast-gazing, I look away as soon as I catch myself doing it. I don’t know if that’s what other posters meant when they said we can’t help ourselves, but it is what I meant when I read those posts and silently nodded in agreement.
Here’s the conclusion:
According to this discussion, men (in majority) DO NOT CARE if their glancing at women’s breasts in work environment can be considered a compliment.
They will do it no without regard about how women feel about it.
You, dear ladies, are being objectified even before your opinion is asked. (Hah. I guess it’s a tautology.)
Ah, ok, I see the new area of questioning. I’m sorry I didn’t understand you. This thread is certainly a challenge to follow. I think we have already talked about the concept of “my eyes just happen to be looking in that direction.” That is not the flick. As you say, that is an innocent viewing of something that is in close proximity to you. I don’t mean to speak for everyone in this thread, but I believe that we have eliminated “the innocent look, the same look that I might give to the lamp or your elbow” as a cause for offense.
If you are asking if we know the difference between the innocent look, and the flick, the answer is that of course we don’t know with 100% accuracy, hence the benefit of the doubt. But, we make reasonable guesses based on things such as “did this person just happen to nonchalantly look at my chest six times in the past two minutes?”
I will confess that there have probably been a few times where I was the recipient of the innocent look, and mistakenly identified it as “the flick.” No one’s perfect, I’m sure I’ll get a karmic accounting of it later. If I am not sure, I do consider it innocent, especially the first time I encounter it from that person. But as a grown woman who has been bringing her breasts to the office with her every day for the past 12 years, I really do believe my accuracy rate is fairly high.
If nothing else, this thread has convinced me that my accuracy is just as good, if not better, than I thought. When men have talked about doing the flick, it dovetails exactly with how I perceive the flick from the receiving end.
sigh You and I are talking RIGHT past each other, Jodi. I was addressing the specific question you asked: “Anyone often think they are [being scoped] if they’re not,” in reference to the possibility that someone might be mistaken.
My point was that we’ll never really know, we’ll we? Because, as you rightly noted, there’s no socially acceptable way to confirm that someone IS doing so. As I noted, “That said, I would think it’s probably pretty obvious most of the time.”
IOW, I am not condoning the flick, I am not trying to explain it away, I am not trying to say it doesn’t happen, I am not trying to say that you don’t correctly identify it 99 times out of 100 when you see it happen, because I think you probably do. All I’m saying is that the specific question you asked probably can’t really be answered. Are we now on the same wavelength?
Wow this thread has sparked some debate.
Jodi thanks for replying. I understand your point. I’m glad you’re willing to accept that certain times it is accidental. I’m willing to accept that certain times it is definitely intentional. In those instances, it is inappropriate in a business setting.
How about I interject a hypothetical into this debate? Imagine that you’re bionic woman and have the ability to pick up on cues that no other human, man or female, could pick up on. Would you be insulted if, when you walk in the room or are talking to a man, any of these things happened:
a) a quickening of pulse
b) an increase in body temperature
c) a faltering of breathing pattern
d) while reading his mind, he suddenly thinks “Damn, she’s hot.”
Assume that all of these things deal with you and his reaction to you. What I’m asking is what is controllable? What can, or should, a guy be blamed for, assuming it is possible to catch him doing it?
Sure “The flick” is intentional and controllable, but so is thinking someone is hot. You can keep your mind on business 100% of the time, but quite often you don’t. Your mind wanders.
IMHO, there’s a difference between thinking “damn, she’s hot. OK, down to business,” and “Damn she’s hot. I wonder what it would be like to go back in the Judge’s chambers and have the court stenographer record what we do with a gavel and my specially prepared amicus brief.”
One is, IMO, just natural. The other should probably be saved for the direct to video “When prosecutors go wild”
Oh, come ON guys. This whole “maybe I wasn’t REALLY looking at your breasts” thing has got to go. I’ll be the first to say that any judgment of “harassment” is a subjective one, but it’s been clear from the get-go that the flick in question is intentional.
I got a minor flame from magdalene for making this point clear earlier, but I give thanks and oodles of respect to delphica, who not only understood why I made the declaration I did, but also has been, IMHO, utterly reasonable as well as profound throughout the course of this debate. And I swear, it’s not just because she mentioned my name favorably—I think the two of us are actually near the same wavelength.
I thought this about Revtim, too, but the mutation of his original point (“The Naked Ape”) into the “lamp argument” has got me at a bit of a loss. If we men are hardwired to look at breasts (which seems rather likely given the absence of per-se breasts in almost all other mammals) then let’s not bother entertaining the lamp argument, which is demeaning to both men and women—men, because it makes “dirty” our naked-ape inclinations to ogle women and women, because it presumes that they are not qualified to make a judgment as to whether a “true flick” has occured.
Let me make it clear that I agree with you, Revtim, that women cannot conclusively prove the intent of “the flick.” However, we need not resort to that technicality in order to demonstrate the strangeness of the issue at hand.
Okay, delphica, here’s you go:
I have done “the flick” to my mom. I don’t have any sisters. But I have done it to my cousins. Even my grandma.
Breasts are interesting. I don’t have any real interest in having sex with the aforementioned parties, but it is interesting nonetheless to have a concept of their (for lack of a better phrase) sexual element. I’m not going to pretend I’m looking at a lamp. Yet I certainly do not intend to degrade these women. I don’t know that I intend to compliment them either, so I’m not sure what bearing this has on the OP. But that’s my answer.
So go ahead, call me a Neanderthal pervert junior-high pig, the rest of you. I’m betting that delphica will not be so cruel.
I’ve spent the last hour or so reading this thread with interest.
This little nugget of wisdom in particular, caught my eye:
Originally posted by Jodi
[blockquote]Yes, most healthy straight men like to look at breasts. But most healthy straight men with a modicum of consideration know that the workplace is not the place to do it.[/]
If you’d be so kind as to satisfy my curiosity, when was the last time you were a man? See, the reason I ask, is that in my forty-five years playing a male – with approximately twenty in a working environment – I have yet to meet any men that don’t, at one point or another, talk about women in a sexual context. And that includes forming opinions on the ‘beauty quotient’ of his coworkers. For me to believe that women don’t do exactly the same thing in reverse would take nothing short of turning into “Tootsie” for a few weeks.
Since the beginning of time, men and women have been attracted to each other and wherever you have both sexes interacting on a continual basis, there will be a certain amount of flirting. Matter of fact, I spent many years working in the fashion industry, and it wasn’t just once or twice that I was handed business cards with rather inviting personal notes inscribed in back. Being married and committed to my wife at the time, ‘thanks but no thanx’ was always my steadfast reply. No doubt those ladies must have scrutinized, eyeballed, ogled and “flicked.” But that’s where it ended, with a simple “NO.” I’ve never felt “cheapened” “bothered” or otherwise harassed by any of those actions. And when I am introduced to a particularly lovely women, I have no qualms about making a positive comment on her appearance. Did I “flick” while coming to this conclusion? Who knows? I’m guessing its an automatic mechanism, finely honed by years of experience. Now, let me clarify, giving a lady a complement does not, in my book, constitute anything else than what is said. Namely, that I enjoy certain standards of beauty and hers is one of them. It’s been my experience, that in this context, it actually helps to break the ice and more often than not, the ensuing business discussions proceed in a more relaxed frame of mind – yet strictly professional.
And for those of you that would like to sever all connections between sex and business…think again. It’s not going to happen as they are an integral part of each other. Most we can do, is fine tune the rules of the “game.”
If it’s the “troglodytes” you’re concerned with, fine, I’m sure there are remnants and I won’t defend lascivious or otherwise untoward behavior – in both sexes. But for the most part, I highly doubt that’s what we are concerned with here.
Oh…I’m a “total package” kind of guy. So I’d wager that my ‘flicks’ cover a lot of territory. <g>
I would be very disturbed to see my mother, sister, girlfriend, or other loved one being “flicked” by the guys in their offices–especially if it routinely happened.
In some social contexts, I suppose it’s a bit different, but I also think it’s inappropriate to “flick” married women. I’ve got several girl friends who are married and are very shapely. Yes, they are gorgeous, but I think I owe it to them to avert my eyes.
If you need to look at a woman’s breasts, go to a strip club or buy a magazine. At least, there, it’s consensual.
Y’know, I’m done here. The question was asked (“Do you mind subtle glances at your breasts at work?”) and answered repeatedly (“Yes, we kind of do.”).
At this point – and admittedly with a couple of exceptions such as TSUNAMI SURFER – the responses have become “Too bad; we’re going to do it anyway. We will excuse it as being in our nature, or by insisting you can’t really tell, or by insisting you must do the same thing to us and that somehow makes it okay.”
Whatever. You asked if it bugged us; the answer, for some of us, is yes. The continued attempts to justify the behavior anyway – even after being told it is not welcome – can’t do anything for me except lower my opinion of men and/or piss me off. So ya’ll have fun trying to mince this so fine the point disappears. I think my position is sufficiently clear that it doesn’t need additional reiteration.
I have followed this thread with interest, and I have to agree with Jodi on all points.
It seems simple. Question asked. “Do you mind?” Question answered (by many) “Yes.” Including me. I’ve been “flicked” since I was 11. I don’t appreciate it in professional settings.
And you still want to do it. No, we can’t stop you. And as most of us have already stresed, we won’t make a huge fuss about it. But - we won’t like it, and won’t respect you. At least many of us won’t. And it does appear that this bothers you - that we DON’T like it, and we DO lose a little respect for you when you do it. Too bad. Do your “flicking” all you want. We will think less of you when you do. See how this works?
I feel less respect for you with the attitude that we somehow should “accept” it, or perhaps should still retain all respect for you even when we see you do it. You can think we should, but it won’t change anything. Because we don’t. We won’t. And you can’t control that. Just like we can’t control you and your “flicking”. But damned if we are going to like it.
I know I’m just repeating what has already been said. It’s tiring. Never have I encountered such a group of stubborn, “in denial” set of people, ever.
Um, just to make Jodi and Yosemitebabe feel a bit better, some of us have mastered the ability to look someone in the eye. I do look people up-and-down when I meet them… including the chest, stomach, legs, arms, back, butt, crotch, etc. etc. I just like to know what/who I’m looking at. I do this with men and women. I try not to stare, because… well… that makes my eyes dry out… 
Anyhoo, don’t hate all men 'cuz of this thread. We asexual men are pretty easy-going…
I would have to actually agree with Icequeen here regarding this discussion and the way it has progressed. Unfortunately, with a number of posters here (not all), this does seem to be the case. And even I have to agree with Jodi on her last post, even though I disagree with some of the previous statements that she has made (and have noted them previously-I would’ve respoded, but then I would be like many here who have fine-tuned, over-interpreted and dissected every meaning and term to the point where we have just about forgotten what the original question was in subject, scope AND intention even though lieu has come back many times to clarify!).
Besides, RedFury pretty much stated the point I would’ve continued making, and Jodi HAS given the answer I was looking for (again, based on her opinion). This doesn’t mean I agree with her, but it gives me insight as to how some people think.
The recent posts from magdalene, seawitch, rmariamp and delphica, IMO, should have concluded the discussion right away. You asked, the women answered.
I don’t think the guys can really situp and say “Well, how can you TELL?” and other defensive rants.
Guys… come on. The question was based on the fact that this was your intention in the first place. If it’s a subtle glance, then they wouldn’t really notice in the first place. YOU look up “subtle” if you don’t know what it means.
I hope that the women who have posted here realize (aw, heck they’re smart enough…) that the somewhat aggravating posts only represent a certain percentage of men in the workplace, and that the guys understand that they shouldn’t necessarily live in fear of reprisal for anything they did which was unintentional.
…Well, I wouldn’t say never… but all in all, I’m in agreement.
This is just a quick response to an earlier question posed by Enderw24, when he asked if looking at hair or some other feature could be considered offensive.
I was recounting some of the discussion here to a good friend of mine, who works as an administrative assistant in a large firm. She said they had a gentleman there for a while who apparently had a shoe fetish - and spent all his time staring at the feet of women in heels. Many of the women there got an odd vibe from him, and his secretary took to wearing sneakers at all times. I realize that he was in no way subtle, but it was a totally different body area, and it did become offensive to the women. It just took them a little longer to catch on.
And as for the guys asking how women know when we’re being scoped out - well, how do you know when some other guy is checking out your SO? I don’t know exactly how we recognize it, but both sexes seem to be capable of identifying the intent. Neither one does so with 100% accuracy, and I’m sure it’s more a matter of reading body language than of reading someone’s mind. Our species communicates in many ways, and words are only one method.
Gosh, but it seems simple to me. If you are interacting professionally with anyone, then you are supposed to be concentrating on what they are saying. You are supposed to be thinking about the work at hand. If you are concentrating on boobies then you are not concentrating on what she is saying. This is disrespectful and flat out rude. And it is unprofessional.
Pay attention, bozo! Why are you thinking about sex at all, when discussing a piece of work? Are you that primitive, that you can’t simply concentrate on the task at hand?
Red Fury said:
Now you have. I am a heterosexual male. I work in an office. I never talk about women in a sexual context at the office. I never form an opinion on the ‘beauty quotient’ of my coworkers. This was true before I met my partner and it is still true. This is because I think of women and men in the office as individuals with their own lifes and loves who simply want to get their work done, whether that be with or without me.
There is a time and a place.
pan