Please, magdalene, tell me what the correct answer was.
So whether you “submit” to the flick or “reject” it, you feel like a piece of meat, right? But you don’t consider that an intimidating work environment?
Okay, fine. But don’t expect that ANYBODY could have picked up on that from your original post.
:: cracks knuckles :: Now on to specifics:
FINNOFRANCO –
Listen, your eyes darting around without your intent to look at something particular is not likely to be mistaken for “the flick,” which is something different. Every woman knows the flick; every woman responding to this thread, agree or disagree that it’s okay, has known precisely what is being discussed. 's example is a good one; you can see when someone mindlessly glances at your shirt, and you can see when someone is intentionally looking at your shirt, and you’re not likely to mistake the two.
RJUNG –
:: Shrug :: You’ve got to take what you will from this discussion, and I guess I don’t really mind if what you take isn’t actually grounded in reality. But just to make one last attempt to pull you back: I never said anything like “the slightest faux pas constitutes harassment;” to the contrary, I have repeatedly said “the flick” is probably NOT harassment. I have also repeatedly said it’s something I personally just live with. I have also said (at least once) that that doesn’t mean I also have to like it. If, in your mind, this constitutes indicia of a “hair-trigger sensitivity” – well, that hardly strikes me as my problem.
BICK –
Oh, so do I. She said it makes her feel like a piece of meat. That, however, is not what “harassment” means. If you are unclear about what harassment means, I suggest you look it up. In the meantime, I asked you to find me one example of one poster saying the flick equals harassment. Can I assume we are in agreement that no one has done so?
It seems to me that you are having trouble with the concept of “context.” Yes, most healthy straight men like to look at breasts. But most healthy straight men with a modicum of consideration know that the workplace is not the place to do it.
I never said it was hostile for a guy to have a nudie calendar in his cubicle – I never said anything approaching that. It’s an entirely different subject, as you yourself acknowledge. As for the flick – I also never said it was “hostile;” generally it’s not – it’s done by a guy wanting to check out a woman and there’s no hostility involved. That doesn’t mean the woman has to appreciate it. I say it’s not harassment because it isn’t; it neither rises to the level of egregiousness necessary to IMO constitute harassment, nor is it usually done with sufficient frequency (eg - every day, by the same guy, who’s totally obvious about it) to constitute harassment.
I think this HAS been answered, but I’ll answer it again: Women do not like being considered in a sexual light at work. The workplace is not an appropriate forum to be checking out others as potential mates – at least not without the “others’” permission. It distracts from whatever business is being done in the office, and it puts women at a distinct disadvantage, because you straight men are not scoping out each other – no, you’re merely doing business with each other in a professional and platonic manner. That’s what women want, too. What’s so hard about this?
ENDER –
I never said no one could look at me ever ever ever. Please refer to my last post for clarification but, to sum up, if you are not looking at me sexually, then we are not talking about “the flick.” No, I don’t think I’d appreciate the sexually motivated “flick” even if it were directed at my hair. Since it is the setting and the motivation that bothers me, what difference would the body part make? I grant you, however, that it is far less likely that a glance at my hair will be perceived as “the flick” – precisely because hair is not generally or chiefly considered in a sexual light. Cf. the difference between “nice hair” and “nice tits” as appropriate compliments.
Again, we are not talking the innocent split-second glance. Women know “the flick” when they get it. I don’t take every glance that wanders below my neck as “the flick,” because every one isn’t. But some of them ARE, and it’s the ones that ARE that we are discussing. If your look was innocent in the first place, we have no problem. But if you do it repeatedly – and the serial flickers know or ought to know who they are – then it becomes less and less likely you’re making the same mistake over and over again, unintentionally every time.
LIEU –
Precisely. There is obviously a gradient here based upon experience, situation, and the egregiousness of the conduct. Just because I am condemning the former type of behavior doesn’t mean I’m wigging out over the latter. People who insist on saying I am are seriously misreading me.
BICK –
Shoot, why go to the New Feminist Dictionary? Any old dictionary will do. “Harassment” is “to irritate or torment REPEATEDLY; to impede or exhaust by REPEATED attacks or raids.” (Dictionary.com) “Harassment” is also intentionally – it is very difficult, if not impossible, to harass someone without meaning to. The flick is not intended to be insulting or offensive – that’s why y’all do it on the sly, because you know better than to out-right ogle. Nor is the flick generally repeated. If it IS repeated persistently, and if it IS intented to offend, then yes, it is harassment. But at that point, we’re no longer talking about the flick, we’re talking about something else, something worse – intentional, repeated, offensive conduct. Conduct not intended to offend can still make a woman feel bad; that doesn’t mean that everything a woman dislikes is harassment. Get it?
I think the vast majority of the male posters here pretty much agree with these three guidelines. What’s getting the male panties (jockey’s?) in a bunch is Jodi’s apparently vehement disagreement with item 1.
A telling quote from an earlier Jodi post:
I think the problem that some folks are having with Jodi’s stance is that it seems, well, a bit extreme. Many female posters have posted responses similar to item 1 (i.e. if it’s innocent and happens rarely then no big deal). Is it really reasonable to always expect 100% adherence to the “no-flick” rule in a professional setting? While it’s possible it has about the same likelihood of occuring as the entire population of China jumping simultaneously. Possible, but so improbable it boggles the mind.
I have, however, noted that Jodi seems to have qualified some of her statements. Now it seems to be more a case of “When I notice it I deal with it but I certainly don’t appreciate it”.
Three thoughts I have to add here:
-
I believe that people have a great deal of control over their actions but humans have never exercised 100% adherence to anything. I don’t see anything wrong with attempting to minimize undesired behavior through some kinds of social pressure, or by informing people when they’ve made you uncomfortable, etc. but the fact remains that certain actions will NEVER be eliminated (not because people “can’t help it”, but because people decline to exercise self control). Therefore, I think it’s unreasonable to expect 100% adherence to a no-flick rule in a professional setting. It simply isn’t a realistic worldview.
-
I think it’s perfectly reasonable for a person to become uncomfortable due to unwanted attention. Jodi has indicated that in most cases she doesn’t make it an issue when she notices “the flick” but that she still finds it unwelcome. This seems a practical stance provided that the person in question isn’t overly sensitive. In otherwords they aren’t so sensitive that they see “the flick” when what actually occurred was innocent, random, eye movements.
-
I see the words “glance”, “split second”, “2 inches away”, etc. The point is that the women don’t always know the thoughts of the person they think is giving them the flick. I say think because some women may interpret an innocent pair of wandering eyes as “scoping them out” when indeed it isn’t. And, of course no one truly knows what someone else is thinking. Some self proclaimed gay posters have even admitted to glancing at a womans breasts and we know that they can’t be thinking sexual thoughts right? I get the impression that some of the male posters are offended because others seem to be labeling them as troglodytes for what they see as an innocent or unintended act. I can see their point.
Grim
Grim,, I would say that the flick described in scenario #1 is not the flick most of us are talking about. If your eyes “innnocently” pass over someone’s breasts in the course of general vision, it is not the flick. The flick is always intentional, otherwise, it is merely the mechanics of seeing things that are in front of you. And I am even willing to admit that sometimes one’s eyes will come to rest somewhere at random, and the laws of probability mandate that sometimes that random place happens to be my chest. No big deal. The flick is annoying because there is a “Destination: Boobies!” element attached.
Maybe it got lost somewhere in there, but I did specifically call men to task for saying that the flick was completely unintentional and innocent (the lamp scenario) while at the same time saying they could not be expected not to look at breasts because it was a sexual impulse. BickBryo at least came out solidly on one side of the issue.
I’m probably opening up a can of worms here, but Lord help me, I’m going to do it anyway. For those men who say that the urge to flick cannot be overcome, do you do the flick when you are talking to your mother? Your sister? Your adult daughter?
What DELPHICA said.
If in No. 1 we are using the term “innocently” to mean “unintentionally,” then I have no problem with “the flick” – because then IMO we’re not talking about “the flick.”
If in No. 1 we are using the term “innocently” to men “intentionally, but not hostilely” a/ka/ Destination Boobies!, then, yes, I have a low-level problem with it, in the sense that I don’t appreciate it. And, yes, I think you men can control this every time, so long as you can control your intentional conduct, and, since I don’t like it, I would prefer you didn’t do it. And IF you know I don’t like it, I don’t think it is in the least unreasonable to expect you to refrain from doing it.
This still doesn’t mean I throw a hissy fit over it. It means I don’t appreciate it. The end.
Jodi, please inform us how you can tell the difference the “innocent” glance and the “Destination Boobies” glance.
Gee, Jodi how dare you be reasonable, expecting that people be treated with respect at work, that sexual innuendos be considered inappropriate workplace behavior, that believes that men can & should control their voluntary actions?
I’ve been watching this spin around and have a difficult time understanding what the friggin’ big deal is. The OP essentially was “hey, do females dislike it when during a work related exchange, a man scopes out their tits?” and then it downgraded into a ‘how can you demand that I not see what’s in front of me’.
For those keeping count:
another female who’d prefer to be treated w/dignity & respect in the work place (gasp), that wouldn’t call an attorney if I caught your eyes wandering, but would think less of you.
Gee Revtim do you know the difference when you doit? what makes you think it’s not as clear to those around you. Reminds me of all the folks I’ve known who figured ‘nobody can tell I’m high’ etc.
Clue #2. When with your SO, has she ever elbowed you for ‘ogling’? How do you think she knew?
And, besides, Jodi et al are not proceeding with legal action etc. when exposed to the ‘flick’. We notice. We’re annoyed. end of story. IF it gets too bad, as far as I’ve seen here (and experienced), we’d verbalize it, so you would know that we’d noticed.
Umm… does that mean that “flick” radar is 100% accurate? Or is it pretty accurate? Or, is it … accurate so far as you know?
I’m genuinely curious as I don’t believe it’s possible, via intuition, or reading “vibes”, or whatever to really know how well you’re diagnosing looks. Yes, I’m sure that a lot of looks are bleeding obvious but just as many, I’m sure, take a degree of… shall we say, interpretation?
Am I completely offbase here?
Grim
** Grim** at least for me, and I suspect for the rest of those posting here - if it ain’t obvious we don’t hold it against you. I don’t stand around with a stop watch in my hand timing how long your eyes stay on my breasts.
That having been said, I think you’re dreaming when you don’t think you’re being obvious when you are actually scoping some one out. But again, since we’re not hauling your ass to court, getting you fired etc. what’s your point? If you’re doing it often and obviously enough for us to get more than the ‘merely annoyed’ we’ve been talking about, it will get verbalized and you will have a direct opportunity to disclaim “no, I was merely admiring the fancy stitchwork on the buttons of your blouse”
Oh, I don’t know, REV. Seriously. It’s the difference between someone looking in your direction and someone looking AT you. You just kind of know. Like I’ve said, every woman here knows exactly what we’re talking about and, regardless of whether it bugs her or not, we all know the flick when we get it.
Does that mean we are never wrong? Obviously not. I have never said that it’s out of the realm of the possible that a man is absentmindedly gazing at my breasts while I’m thinking “Is he checking me out? He’s checking me out!” But I think we can agree that most of the time a man gazing at a woman’s breasts is doing so on purpose. The whole premise of the OP is that it’s intentional, so I don’t see the point of the question “what if it’s not?” What if it’s not? Practically speaking, it doesn’t make a difference since I don’t do anything about it anyway. But obviously if I think you’re doing it on purpose, I won’t appreciate it.
GRIM – Again, I’m not saying it’s 100% accurate. But it’s pretty accurate. Ladies, anyone disagree? Anyone not know when they’re being scoped out? Anyone often think they are if they’re not?
Maybe it’s an infentesimal difference in how long the glance is? You don’t really rest your eyes long enough to absorb anything on something you’re not interested in really seeing. It’s the difference between registering that someone is next to you at the corner waiting to cross the street, and looking at her (or him). I really don’t know, so I’m certainly not saying I’m never wrong and it’s never done by accident.
Umm, Jodi? I agree with you that the flick is a bad thing and all, but I have to wonder… If you don’t ask the person who’s looking at you, how can you be sure one way or the other? In other words, were I female, how could I answer the question of how often I mistakenly think I’m being scoped out unless I confront every guy whose gaze falls upon my breasts and ask? 
That said, I would think it’s probably pretty obvious most of the time. I’m not the most experienced person in the entire world, but you know, breasts tend to be a short way below the face, like a foot or so, right? If my gaze moves straight from your eyes to your chest and back, chances are pretty good I’m checking you out, eh? And if I’m not, my eyes will probably continue to wander around for a while (and I’ll probably look vaguely embarrassed if the first place my eyes go is to your chest unless I MEANT to do that), so although it’s not foolproof, I suspect that it can’t be that hard to figure it out, either.
Oh, and to answer your much earlier question about why none of the men have said anything about the “we men can’t help it” characterization… In my case, while I think it’s not true, it doesn’t bother me enough to start arguing about it. People have all sorts of stereotypes, and frankly, that one is far enough down the list of ones I find irritating that I can think of a lot of things I’d rather try to correct.
Ask him what? “Are you looking at my tits?” How would that be more appropriate in a work environment than the original flick? Seems like a question calculated to embarrass us both, regardless of the answer. What if it’s yes? What if it’s no? At any rate, why would I ask? I don’t do anything about it anyway, except feel a little impatient.
Most of the time there’s no need to ask anyway, because it’s pretty obvious, just as you suspect.
What a topic.
- Man asks if it offends women when men stare at their breasts (in business setting) or if they think of it as a compliment.
- Women (in majority) say it does, to some degree, offend them.
- Men (in majority) say they won’t stop because it’s “uncontrollable.”
Conclusion?
actually only some of the men seem to claim that it’s uncontrollable. Some seem to be focused on ‘how can you tell, I mean I really might have been just looking over your shoulder and then oops, my eyeballs slid and there you go thinking I’m oogling your boobs’
yet another clue - if we’re commenting that we’ve all experienced it at the office or other inappropriate times, you’re not being as subtle as you think you are. sheesh.
And that was really my point: it’s impossible to be certain because there’s no acceptable way to figure it out. I was trying to illustrate that I don’t really see how you can answer the question of whether someone IS checking you out or you only THINK they are.
I will repeat: We know. I find it hard to believe that this conversation is actually going like this?
“Is it okay if we scope your boobs at work?”
“No.”
"But how do you know we’re doing it?
“We know.”
“Huh. Can’t say how, huh? Then you must not know.”
The ENTIRE THREAD is PREMISED on the admission by the OP that that is EXACTLY what is being done. Now we’ve devolved down to “well, maybe you only THINK this is being done.” No. It is being done. Every day, to some woman somewhere.
I apologize if my inability to articulate how we can tell the difference bothers you, but that doesn’t mean that no difference exists or we can’t really tell. As I’ve said, maybe it’s an infintesimal difference in how long the glance lasts. I truly don’t know. My only response, unsatsifactory as it may be, to the question “how do you know if you’re being scoped?” is “we just do.” I will also add that you guys are often not as subtle about this as you apparently imagine you are.
And I will again appeal to all the ladies out there to chime in if they really think this doesn’t happen or they don’t know when it’s going on. Jeez, how many women have posted and said “The flick??” What is this ‘flick’ of which you speak? What on earth are you talking about?" Not one. Everyone knows precisely what we’re talking about. Just because I can’t articulate the precise parameters for it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
How do I now? Clearly I do not know with 100% accuracy, and so I give people the benefit of the doubt (as I already mentioned).
The biggest tip off, however, is frequency. This can be either several times in one converation, or once per conversation over many conversations. Most flickers I have encountered are repeat offenders. If the gaze were truly at random, I would expect that some of the time the person was looking at, oh say my earrings, or a spot above my left shoulder. But if it is always, or almost always, on my chest, then I am not inclined to believe it is random.
There is also the feeling of “Do I have spinach in my teeth?” We are chatting away, and all of a sudden there is a slight change of expression as you are looking at my teeth, so I suspect there is a reason. If I suddenly feel that you are possibly looking at spinach in my cleavage, then I feel I have detected the flick.
But ultimately, Jodi’s point is probably the most important. The OP clearly set the scenario that someone is taking a peek. How do I know? Because that’s what the OP said. And then other people chimed in to say “yep, I do it, so what’s the big deal?”