How bizarre! That book’s on my coffee table right now and is to be the next one I read. He strikes me as someone that employs little of the scientific method but a lot of common sense.
For some of us, yes. My eyes wander all over the place when I talk to someone, male or female, and I have to make a deliberate effort to keep eye contact for more than two seconds. Don’t immediately assume that my wandering eyes mean I’m ogling your breasts (especially since I’ve never seen them and don’t know if I should ogle them or not! ;))
Being a perv by nature, I enjoy looking but try to do when I won’t be noticed looking, or at least wait until it’s an appropriate time/place/girl to look, comment, fondles, etc.
After looking at the ChiDope pics… I was certainly looking at them, and admiring!
And IMNSHO… you have a lot more going on than just a hell of a nice rack 
Hmmmmmmmmm…
Very well put, revtim. I’d add that men are, believe it or not, capable of multitasking at least to the point of hearing and understanding women’s words while ALSO noticing their breasts. And I’d also add that, whether we like it or not, this is almost assuredly one of the reasons men were resistant to women in the workplace to begin with (they knew they wouldn’t be able to help themselves—work is just too boring not to think about sex).
For the ladies, a few semi-questions. First, I don’t understand why Sophie considers the “business flick” so demeaning, unless the situation is specifically a job interview or some such. To the extent that the business setting involves power plays, there’s no doubt in my mind that sexuality could make things needlessly complicated. But among business “peers,” I don’t see how it’s any worse than the same thing at a bar.
And rmariamp—a “piece of meat”? Don’t you think you’re being just a tiny bit overdramatic? We’re talking about a momentary glance, here, not catcalling. What’s so horrendously embarrassing about having one’s breasts be noticed?
Hold tight there! What? I am being incredibly naive for not wanting men to stare at my breasts while I’m at work? What?
That’s the most naive thing I have ever heard.
I don’t wear form fitting tops to work. I don’t wear low-cut shirts to work. And FTR, it does not matter what size my breasts are. Stay focused on what I am saying while we are at work - that is definitely not too much to ask.
I expect all people to behave as adults in a business setting. If you “flick” while you are at work, you are not only possibly insulting the person with the breasts, you are opening yourself up for litigation.
Forgive me. I expect all adults to fight their simian urges while in a business setting.
This is all common sense, folks. I am not being a prude about this at all.
Only a spastic goob needs to do the “flick” like some peeping adolescent. Any real man should be able to take in a woman’s shape and acquire needed target acquisition information with sweeping gaze that locks in on her face before engaging her intellect with insightful questions related to the business at hand. Often women are not used to this direct eye contact during conversation and in a state of confusion will begin playing with their hair, crossing their legs or thrusting their chests outward to direct the attention away from their eyes and the deep penetrating gaze which is unlocking the deepest secrets of their souls.
Sophie, do you have any argument against what I said besides the fact that you don’t like it, and you want people to act the way you want them to act?
Men, like women, are primates, and will have primate urges. To ignore the thousands, maybe millions of years of conditioning that make men be attracted to and want to look at breasts because a few decades of social custom is indeed incredibly naive, regardless of your expectations.
I didn’t mean to imply that it’s OK to stare at them all day, but an occasional glance is simply going to happen, no matter what. It is to be expected. It cannot be totally eliminated. You must either live with it occasionally, or work at home or in a man-and-possibly-lesbian-free enviroment.
I think you’ve missed the point just a bit there. Revtim wasn’t saying you should WANT guys to look, he was just saying that most of them do, by nature, glance southward just a bit now and then, and that you should be aware of that.
FTR, I don’t recall ever being ogled by a guy at work. Granted, I don’t have a nice body, but I don’t think that matters when it comes to breasts. Men like to look at them, my husband included. As long as they don’t make rude comments or unwanted gestures or passes, I guess I just don’t notice…Or maybe I never HAVE had mine stared at. 
I have not missed the point one bit. Truth is, it should be okay to catch a peek. It should not be a problem at all.
BUT IT IS. It is a problem. This very thing has happened to (you knew this was coming, right?) me so many times and every time it happens I want to crawl away and hide. Not to mention the fact that people get in trouble for it; they get fired. Like I said before, there ain’t nothin’ prudish about not wantin’ to lose your job…or not wantin’ to finally have to work up the nerve to tell a man, “Look, Joe, it makes me really uncomfortable when you do the flick.” I am not his keeper. It is not my responsibility to school him in basic good manners.
My point, okielady, is that in a business setting, just do your best either not to do it or not to get caught.
Stop looking me in the eye, damnit!
Is this really that huge of a phenomenon? Has every woman in the world experienced this except me? I can’t ever recall once having a man break eye contact to stare at my chest. Ever.
I can fully agree with this statement - that sums it up for
me. It acknowledges that simian urges exist, and that you’re
responsible for reigning them in when you should.
Revtim and BickByro;
You are expected to curb your “primate” instincts in a business setting. I urge you both to take a look at current sexual harassment standards, because your behavior, if I’m interpreting you correctly, would make you both pretty much guilty.
Current society requires different behavior in a business setting than it does in a purely social one. If you don’t accept those restrictions, you need to work alone. You might think you’re being subtle.
Also, Bick, “they can’t help themselves” is a lame excuse at best, and far underestimates men in general. I think a lot of men have a little more self control than you give credit for.
Yikes! Off-topic, but does that include feces-throwing as well? If so, I need to make some apologies.
No, but I have felt the occasional urge (during particularly boring meetings) to jump up on the table, hoot a few times and throw some papers around.
Note to self: Do not sit across from Legomancer in staff meetings.
Sophie, I’m sorry you have problems with just an occasional glance, but to be honest, the world is not going to change, so maybe you should try to live with it.
Nobody reading this message is going to see the day where every man will be able to supress the urge to look every time.
I’ve brought up the point a couple times now that this is a sexual signal that has been ingrained for thousands if not millions of years. Do you feel this is an incorrect statement, or simply that men should be able to ignore it?
seawitch: First of all, I still haven’t seen a satisfactory answer to why “the flick” seems to be acceptable if it’s a stranger at a bar but not if it’s a longtime coworker at the workplace. Somebody, please break this one down for me.
But regardless of that, I am not aware of any current sexual harassment standard that says “men may not focus their eyes for even a second on any part of a woman’s body below her chin.” Sounds rather, well, Islamic, don’t you think? Is this the fruit of the feminist revolution?
If there is such a law, I’ll tell you straight up that I think it is an utterly stupid law, and one which obviously gives men no more credit for self-control than you believe I do when I say “men can’t help it.” If revtim and I are indeed wrong to say that men (as a whole; yes, this is a generalization) will always try to sneak a peek, then why should it be necessary to enact such puritanical harassment laws?
Finally, I don’t particularly care what “current society” requires, any more than the flappers and bra-burners cared. I don’t want to get into a full-on feminism argument here, but suffice it to say that I agree with Christina Hoff Sommers more often than not.
I can assure you that I am familiar with my employer’s policies, and an occasional glance at the chest is not considered sexual harrassment. Constant staring at the breasts is indeed harrassment, of course.
You know, women trying to make a judgement about how strong and/or resistable a man’s urge is to look at a breast is about as valid as me saying “Hey, those menstrual cramps aren’t so bad, just ignore 'em!”.
REVTIME –
Utter bullshit. Through thousands, maybe millions of years of conditioning, you have the urge to evacuate your bowels or a regular basis. Does that mean you defecate in the hallway? The same sexual urge you’re talking about may urge you not just to look at her breasts but to stroke them or fondle them. Does that mean women should resign themselves to the occasional business groping?
Some other things that years of evolution have endowed men with are eyes they have the power to focus at will, neck muscles they can control, and the self-discipline to suppress their “urges” in inappropriate situations. I refuse to believe that civilized men have the lack of self-control that you seem to assign them.
You are correct that “it happens” and “we have to live with it” – it happens because of men who do not realize it is inappropriate; men who do not realize it is as easy to spot as it is; or men who do not care that they may be offending women and claim to be helplessly in the thrall of their “urges.” It is only the third category of men who truly offend me. Do I expect every man to supress the urge to look every time, in a business setting? Damn right I do. And I do not believe that expectation is in the least unreasonable.
You are not doing business with my tits. Or my legs, or my ass. I do not appreciate being looked at in any sexual manner at work. Nor do I want my component parts to be non-sexually “admired” for their “beauty;” I do not appreciate being made to feel like an object. Is “the flick” worth the full-on sexual harassment hissy-fit? No. But we see it, guys, we see it – yes, even you who think you’re being so suave we won’t notice – and we don’t like it.
If I want you to admire my chest, I’ll be in a bar, wearing my look-at-my-tits scoop-neck top.