Carnivale 10/26 - The River (spoilers)

  • Going snake hunting, eh? Is THAT what they used to call it back then?

  • I wonder why Ben didn’t just use the nearby field of flowers rather than the contents of the pond when he helped Gabriel

  • Did Sophie tell her mother that she thinks/knows she is pregnant?

  • Interesting story about Iris and Justin’s origins. It kind of fits in with the immigrants origin of the main characters that’s been mentioned in previous threads

Maybe a bunchof dead fish is less noticable than a whole field of dead flowers. It looked like he was trying to keep a low profile, and didn’t want Lotz to know what he was up to.

I still hope Justin fights the darkness. Though his powers are “evil”, he himself hasn’t done anything evil yet.

Ma Pimp is such an evil bitch. I wish Lodz had smacked her around.

Speaking of Lodz, he’s definately evil. I’ve known that ever since episode 4 I think (the dust storm?). Also way back when he said Management doesn’t talk to him anymore. I think Lodz is going to be the main villain for at least season 1.

I wonder how many new characters with the importance of the radio guy we will run into this season. His role suddenly seems critical to the advancement of “plot.” I have suspected Amy Madigan’s role had to be way more important than just the caretaker for Justin. Now that it’s beginning to expand, I’m hopeful her character enters into more situations. I don’t think her past is lily white either.

Going back to the first episode, what did Ben kill when he healed the girl in the wagon with the bad legs?

All I can remember was the vines or kudzu on the gate.

The fields around her withered and died.

I had an icky moment with Iris smelling and caressing Justin’s whip.

  1. Why did the blind guy start hitting the bearded chick with his cane?

  2. Sophie suspects she’s pregnant?

The icky moment started when she smelled his suit…

Rita Sue? What’s wrong with her? She was the only one who had any sense. She knew better than to give up a steady income to run away to Hollywood. And yeah it doesn’t look like she’s mourning as hard as her husband, or even Libby, but I do think she’s trying to move on because if she didn’t, she’d probably lose it.
In fact, I bet if Ben’s secret ever comes out and she finds out that he could have brought her daughter back, she might lose it then.

But do we know for sure that he can bring a human back to life? Especially one that’s been dead from some hours?

Ah, so you suspect him of selling his sight to the dark side for the gift of second sight, and that’s why management (presumed good?) doesn’t talk to him. Perhaps he is now the dark side’s eyes in the good camp.

She teased him when he was surprised the Ben used his healing powers without him. Lodz apparently wants to control Ben and is using the guise of being a mentor to make that happen.

Which brings us to the question of what was Lodz’s relation to Scudder (Ben’ father, who had the [presumably] good gift of healing)? Visions show the Scudder was killed by a bear, and Lodz has the bear’s costume hanging on his trailer.

I’m guessing Justin’s going to become a fire and brimstone radio evangelist.

Here’s where I spell out Justin and his sister’s history from what I think should have been clear if you put all the pieces together. However, if you’re confused and want to figure it out yourselves, don’t peek.

[spoiler]It seems that Justin (aka, Alexy) and his sister were children of the previous avatar of evil, a Russian officer in WWI.

Justin, when he was pulled off the bridge says, “It’s not given to me, it’s a birthright.” He now knows that his powers weren’t just plopped onto him from above, they come from dad, who, in the vision with the children was called an ‘evil man’ by his daughter.

The children (Justin and sister, Russian immigrants) were escaping evil Dad with mom, and were apparently told by mom to only trust a man of God (a minister/priest). The train crashes and mom dies. The children are fleeing dad and his search party. Dad catches up to them and grabs and is hurting/killing the sister. Justin uses his powers and kills dad.

(Justin’s suicide vision has him encounter himself and his sister when they were on the lam. He then replays the struggle where his younger self kills dad, who’s being played by his older self. So, he kills himself in the story [creepy] as a parallel to his own murder of his father. But since Justin is the new avatar of darkness, it all makes sense – he is his father.

Amy’s ‘story’ to the radio reporter confirms the reality of the vision.)

Back to the timeline: The siblings finds a minister who raises them (picture on the stairwell). They adopt their American persona as Amy and Justin. Justin becomes a minister himself, and is probably racked by guilt for murdering dad, but now realizes he truly is his father’s son.[/spoiler]


Do you think that’ll matter to Rita Sue. They were convinced the poor bartender was guilty of killing Dora May because…well because he said he knew why the miners did it. Nothing he said implicated him at all, but by last night’s episode she knew he was the guilty party.

I’m thinking she’s only going to what to hear/know what she wants to hear/know.

I could be wrong, but I don’t think we saw what the collateral damage was when young Ben brought the kitten back to life. I can only imagine that resurrecting a human being would have some major repercussions.

Ben could have been the cause of the Great Dust Bowl by using his powers repeatedly to save his mom, cat, and anything else he might have used his powers on.


And instead keep both her daughter and her husband in an occupation that’s eating away at their souls. It seems pretty clear that the daugther doesn’t want to dance the cooch for the rest of her life.


pepperlandgirl asked, “What the problem with Rita Sue?”

Hmmm, where to start… Prostituting her daughters? That doesn’t seem too great to me. Then, she was the one who forced her daughter to do a blow off when Samson explicitly told her not to, and then when Dora Mae was attacked, not offering the slightest bit of comfort. The girl was then spirited away and killed. I was vastly relieved to find that she was aware of her role in Dora Mae’s death and didn’t just blame Samson; however, I thought it was pathetic the way she prevented her daughter and husband from moving away from a lifestyle that only degrades them and reminds them of what they’ve lost (and I don’t just mean Dora Mae).

moriah said, “Visions show the Scudder was killed by a bear, and Lodz has the bear’s costume hanging on his trailer.”

I don’t think that Scudder was killed by a bear; the Russian soldier was killed, or at least mauled, by the bear after he shot it. Remember that Ben-as-Scudder in the vision tried to shoot it but his gun jammed; the Russian shot the bear rather than shooting Ben-as-Scudder, which led to his own destruction. After escaping the bear, B-a-S ran into Lodz, who was still sighted and who claimed ownership over the bear.

So who is the evil father of Alexi/Justin and Iris? Should we know who he is? Maybe the character who is eating with Scudder in the diner dream, the one who shot the bear? Perhaps he survived the bear attack? I don’t know, but the Russian connection is getting stronger.

I don’t like the idea of Justin being destined to be evil. I hate the idea of fate/destiny/predestination with a passion. I hope Justin fights his dark powers.

Anyone else getting rasputin vibes from the whole Justin, Iris, Russia thing?

I just don’t think Rita Sue is a bad person. I think she’s motivated by keeping food on her table, so to speak. And besides, we know that the Hollywood thing would have been a very bad idea–the card was upside down. She probably prevented them from more tragedy, or at least very deep disappointment.

It may be a job that degrades them…but it’s a job. It’s not like they have a lot of options in 1934…

Moriah, that was some very interesting anaylsis. Thanks!

I’m not convinced that we’re right about who in the previous generation was evil. Let’s see – Hack Scudder murdered a man with a pick-axe, condemned an entire town to an eternity of torment, and probably abandoned a woman pregnant with his child. (Plus, c’mon, he’s being played by John Savage!) OTOH, if the visions of the past can be believed, the Russian soldier had the drop on his nemesis in the trench but instead of killing him, attempted to protect him from the bear. The only reason to suspect he’s evil is because Iris & Justin’s mother said so.