It’s only premarital sex if you plan to marry the girl. 
Generations of people have been mentally fucked up because they had it hammered into their heads that anything other than ‘soul uniting’ sex inside marriage was wrong.
In reality, plenty of people are having toe-curling sex outside of marriage that has absolutely nothing to do with souls (some of us don’t even believe in souls!) makes them very happy, and the damn church is full of shit to claim that anything but ‘soul uniting’ sex inside marriage is wrong. But they do it because their rule is the most effective way to continue breeding more members of the church, thus increasing the overall wealth held by the church and the power of those at the top.
I think he’s been mind-fucked by the church into a guilt-ridden existence where things that shouldn’t cause him to tear himself apart are being made out as evil and unnecessarily damaging someone who doesn’t have a thing wrong with him.
He’s a normal, healthy adult male. Of course he wants sex. There’s nothing wrong with wanting it, or having it. Except of course that the church has a vested interest in setting up the game so that Autolycus doesn’t do anything to jeopardize the creation of more church members.
It isn’t the sex that’s damaging and wrong. It’s the religion.
This is an interesting comment. At first blush, it sounds a lot like religion blasting. It sounds like hand-stabbing rabid atheism.
But there is precedence for it. I was once told that in Eastern Canada, there was a little thing called the Revolution of the Cradle. Basically, the Catholic Church was telling parishoners to screw like bunnies so that Catholics would eventually outbreed non-Catholics.
I took that thought to a message board, and most people told me that it was bullshit, never happened, stop listening to woo woo ideas like that. I then took it to another message board that was heavily populated by Quebecoise, and they all attested that it was absolutely true. They were taught about it in school as part of history, and that it was a good thing.
I’m still a little undecided about its factuality, but I trust my Quebecoise friends when they say that they’ve been taught that.
I don’t mean it as ‘outbreed the other religions’ tdn.
I mean that if you tell people only to screw inside marriage, which must be sanctioned by the Catholic church, and you tell them to not use birth control, what you’re doing is creating the ideal situation to create more church members.
If you can’t convert them in, breed them in.
(In a previous post, I said I wasn’t going to diss the Catholic Church; I meant I wouldn’t in that post.)
Catsix is quite correct. The church sets impossible standards, and sprays guilt on everyone who can’t meet them. Its rules about sex and marriage are laughable. The faithful are pressed into poverty and madness by trying to support and cope with their endless trail of children. The condemnation of condoms can be a death sentence these days. Ah, well, enough of that.
Let’s remember, though, that Autolycus didn’t ask us whether he should stay with the church. He wants to know how to do the Vatican Rag without going crazy. So, let me be more explicit than I was in my first post.
Many, many Catholics simply ignore the Pope’s silly proclamations about sex. They have premarital sex. Most of them use birth control methods developed after 1800. Lots of them even have abortions. A lot of Catholic marriages end in divorce, and they are welcomed back into the church. To quote a local priest, “No, divorce doesn’t make your children bastards. Come back to church, and bring your children.”
Yes. No shit. And lots of people were (and for all I know still are) convinced that lipstick and dancing were grave sins–but Baptists this time, not Catholics. Established institutions, religious or not, have always tried to control behavior through rules, dispensations and information. I don’t disagree with you. What I can’t figure out is why you are quoting my post.
Yep. No argument there. I’m not interested in arguing the last sentence there, but I do recall reading some time back that the settlers in Israel were encourage to have as many as children as possible. I mention this only to show that it is not just the Catholic church that would control/encourage the sexual behavior of its members.
FTR, I think the whole rhythm method is nonsense. Sure, it’s theoretically possible, but I’ve known too many Catholics who have not (apparently) “used it appropriately”.
We all want sex. What I thought this thread was about was Autolycus trying to reconcile his wants with what he believes is his duty. Disparaging his faith and his church really doesn’t help much. There are few people who would just up and leave a church/temple etc because of some mean words about it on the internet, but those words aren’t very helpful for the OP.
**AskNott **said it much better, on preview…
For me personally, when I finally managed to separate myself from Catholic beliefs regarding sex (and general ‘reaching for perfection’ teachings), my life became so much better.
No, not because I was getting laid every day. Striving for perfection fucked me up, really and truly. I felt that I couldn’t even think about sex, because obviously I should be above such things. The first time that I was even hugged by a guy, I broke down sobbing. I felt I had to try to be as absolutely perfect as I could be, which is impossible, of course. We’re talking (this is back in high school), I’d write out my history homework. I write very very small. If I made a spelling mistake or misnumbered something or anything else, I would get out another sheet of paper and completely start over, even if I was literally on the very last line of the page. Even my goddamn homework couldn’t have white out on it.
I had severe depression for years because I had intense self-loathing for not living as I should. Nevermind that as a teen, I never had sex, smoked, drank, did drugs, skipped school, stayed out late, snuck out at night or anything. I was the worst human being on the planet and I didn’t deserve anything good at all. I truly and honestly believed that with all my heart.
Finally learning to slowly let go of that about 3 years ago (I’m 25 now) has helped me so goddamn much, you have no idea. I have depressive episodes, but nowhere near as bad*. I feel more relaxed, I like myself and feel I have good qualities (even if I still have bad self-confidence issues). I couldn’t go back to how I was in high school and most of college; I’d probably end up killing myself in all seriousness.
- I no longer starve myself because I deserve to be miserable, for example.
Thank you for sharing your experience. When I was younger I watched many of my friends suffer in the same manner: constantly certain that God was watching and disappointed in minor failures, and disgusted with their natural urges. Perfectionism manifested in every conceivable manner of self-loathing: eating disorders, cutting, depression, drug abuse; shame. The more pious their childhood, the more unhappy their adult lives.
If you don’t mind me asking, what triggered your change of attitude?
I think that it’s his faith that’s fucking him up. I think the problem is that he’s trying to live up to some ridiculous notion of ‘duty’ and beating himself up for doing something that is a normal, healthy part of being an adult human.
In case I’m not being clear, I don’t think his sex drive is causing the problem. I think the religion is the only problem here.
Yeah, that’s pretty much what I’ve noticed about people who tried to live up to some religious dogma about abstinence.
I can’t speak for zweisamkeit, but my attitude was formed by observing that the more pious and more devoted to the idea of being religiously perfect especially about sex someone was, the more fucked up and unhappy they seemed. They were basically these walking balls of guilt. It seemed like a horrible future.
I was raised by people who equate sex outside of marriage with prostitution. If you do it, you’re a whore, because that’s what the church said. I was lucky to overcome that kind of backward thinking before it did permanent damage. I am of the opinion that anyone trying to help Autolycus live up to his ‘duty’ to the church is really doing more harm than good.
And just because someone fails to live up to an arbitrary standard with respect to sex does not mean their desires are controlling them.
That sucks, catsix. I can understand your bitterness re religion better now.
But I will point out that I am not asking or telling the OP to live up to his supposed Catholic “duty”. I am speaking more generally–of the duty to oneself. If your standards are such that sleeping with a different person every week is OK by you- I have no problem with that (I don’t want to be one of the people you sleep with. General “you” here). If you think that to do so is depraved and horrid and you want no part of it; are content to wait until marriage–I’m fine with that too.
IMO, it’s up to each person to make that determination. The OP has stated he isn’t comfortable with the dichotomy he faces. I’m saying he has to find his own comfort zone–not that he owes a duty to the Church.
Dr Lao: I didn’t say they did. I asked if they should.
Oh it’s not bitterness, eleanorigby. It’s that I see religion clearly for what it is - a tool invented by those who wanted to have power over others.
The dichotomy was created by one of the sides as a means of control. Y’know, cults also seek to exert extreme controls on the sex lives and/or sexualities of their members. It’s very useful to take something that is normal and natural and convince people that it is wrong and shameful and that you (general) are the only one who can help them. They’ll give you all their money, hell they’ll even kill themselves for you.
There’s a reason why the catholic church is the richest single organization in the world.
There would be no dichotomy if it hadn’t been artificially created by religion, and Autolycus would be doing himself a favor if he just pulled back the curtain and saw the man behind it.
But I think that the dichotomy can exist separate from even having any faith (ie established religion). I think the dichotomy resides in all of us: the battle of discipline vs chaos, in essentials. We all fight this, and you are quite right when you say that many (perhaps all) religions have exploited this tension for centuries. Freud did too-in his Id vs SuperEgo stuff.
Take the Church right out of it. Now it is a concern of Autolycus’ re his sexual appetite and his desire to be comfortable within his own skin with his behavior or actions. What then is the advice? To go ahead, fuck around and stop thinking so much? Or is it the opposite–stop all sexual activity, live a life of deprivation and sacrifice?
I say neither is a good answer–I doubt anyone would seriously advocate either extreme. So, the solution lies in the OP–he must decide with what actions his own conscience is “clear”. I can’t say for him, nor can anyone else. He is looking to his faith to find some answers or at least some support. Who knows what he may find there?
I was completely unchurched as a child and teenager. I didn’t come to sex (bad pun, sorry) with church baggage–I came with fear of STDs and pregnancy. But at some point, I think we all look at our habits, whatever they may be–regarding sex, cleanliness, work, love life etc–and say to ourselves: I can make this better or I need to improve here. Or I need to cut Twinkies right out if I don’t want to gain weight later-whatever. It’s when we can’t stop (or start) that I think our desires gain control over us. Eating disorders, alcoholism, sexual addiction, gambling–these are all normal behaviors perverted.
Those are the big examples, but there is also that drug anger and its many manifestations (jealousy, spite, gossip etc) that needs to be kept in check. The so called 7 deadly sins are good examples as well. I tend to not look at them as sins against God per se, but against our better selves.
I’m rambling here a bit. Sorry. Bottom line: I see no shame or wrongness in questioning one’s predilection for sex (or anything else) and attempting to discipline it. How that happens, why and for whom is entirely none of my business (when referring to others). Hope this makes more sense.
It seems pretty clear from his posts in this thread that he found guilt and pain there. He didn’t seem to be suffering until he started looking at his religion.
The only ‘better’ I see with regards to sex is better sex. Not less of it.
And Autolycus is far from being a sex addict. He had three partners in two years. There are few people who would consider that evidence of his desire controlling him.
When he’s fucking anyone he can find regardless of their gender and finding it hard to hold down a job, then it’s probably addiction.
I think that attempting to live the kind of celibate life that religion demands is a recipe for misery.
I’m not sure I understand the difference, unless maybe it’s the difference between simply gaining more members and outcompeting other faiths. In the case I discussed, it was clearly the latter. Outcompeting other faiths had in that case the purpose of attaining a political majority.
zweisamkeit, thanks for that story. Truly sad. I’m fairly sure that it’s not the entire Catholic Church that is that bad, but I’ve heard similar stories. What especially intrigues (and disgusts) me are stories of people (usually young women) cutting themselves. I cannot understand what sort of institution would drive someone to that.
Years ago I had an internet friend who admitted to occasionally doing that. She sometimes admitted that it was a bad thing to do, but regarded it as something that was sometimes necessary. To her it was not much different from taking an aspirin. It was just something that one would do when one was in pain. No big deal.
I don’t know what drove her to that, but I know that she was raised Catholic and was EXTREMELY bitter about religion in general. When I first got to know her, she took a lot of pride in calling herself a Satanist. After a while, it became clear that she was no such thing, it’s just that she’d do whatever she had to to distance herself from all religion, and Catholicism specifically. There’s some deep dark bit in her past that’s really caused her trouble.
Last I heard, she married a fundamentalist protestant, took up that particular faith, and was preaching the evils of evolution.
I wish her well.
Please don’t take this like a tease, I really don’t mean it to sound like a one, but…
there is no god, so don’t worry about it.
It’s hard for me to grasp, I guess, but to put yourself through such personal turmoil, pain and angst to please a god that simply doesn’t exist just baffles me.
Even IF there were a god, who’s the catholic church to tell you what “He” wants? How would they know? What if there IS a god, but it’s not YOUR god? What if the Hindus are right? Or the Muslims? -or any one of the myriad of ancient gods?
Whom exactly are you trying to please? I think that’s the deeper question you might want to look at for a while instead of turning to religion for personal validation. What is missing in your life that you are trying to fill by pleasing a fictional character?
Again, I’m not mocking, but I think religion is hurting you far more than helping your life.
Hey, guys, Autolycus basically just said that he feels some guilt. That’s all. He’s not flagellating himself every night for his sins, forbidding his girlfriend to touch him because sex is filthy and wrong, or doing anything else freaky like that. (you’re not doing those things, right?) I don’t get where all this “OMG your religion is totally messing you up and you have to renounce it RIGHT NOW!!!” is coming from.
rigs, I just want to point out that I don’t think there’s anyone who thinks the rhythm method is is remotely a good idea. Generally what gets misunderstood and read as the rhythm method is some variation of fertility awareness, or as some call it, Natural Family Planning. Which is used both to avoid pregnancy, or to help with conception. And it’s pretty damn reliable, statistically. A lot of women who dislike the way their bodies react to hormonal birth control use either FAM alone, or in conjunction with barrier methods.
It’s not a specifically Catholic thing.
Sorry. It’s one of the misused terms that bothers me.
That’s just me, being out of date! That’s what it was called back in the day.
But I never knew anyone who successfully prevented pregnancy by using it. FAM sounds good, if a lot of work, but it’s nice to have options.
Because even if you try your hardest, you’ll still at some point fail. But it’s not there for you to confess sins you have plotted out ahead of time, and sinful behavior you don’t plan to change.