Chasing Amy: Holden Had a Point

Cafe Society
1

I recently saw Chasing Amy again and remembered why it ticked me off. Yes, Alyssa had a point; Holden shouldn’t have been hung up on her past promiscuity, nor should he have suggested a threesome with Banky (love that subtle Catcher in the Rye reference).

HOWEVER-- and this is what annoys me-- he had EVERY right to be pissed off that she lied to him about her sexual status. She told him she’d never had sex with a man when she actually had, quite a bit. It’s entirely possible that her supposed virgin status influenced Holden’s choice of birth control. Health issues aside, doesn’t anyone besides me think it’s wrong to lie about your sexual history to such a flagrant extent, and then be offended that your partner is appalled when the truth is revealed (esp. when it’s revealed by someone else)?

I was disappointed in Kevin Smith when this issue of honesty was never broached, and Holden was left looking and feeling like a total ass when there was a modicum of righteousness in his outrage about Alyssa’s past. It DID affect him; she misrepresented who she was, and that is not acceptable.

Just wanted to vent, run it up the flagpole and see if anyone thought the same (or not).

2

I never thought about it that way (probably because Holden’s menage e trois suggestion was so damned LUDICROUS it left me stammering) but you’re absolutely right. Even if she didn’t reveal the extent of her past relationships with men, she should have told him that she’d HAD relationships with men.

Did she tell him, though? Now I am thinking about the scene where she “explains” her lesbianism to him, when they’re in bed together. I do remember she said she didn’t like being limited in her choices, and that was why she turned to women in the first place.

I may have to watch this again.

3

My buddies and I were watching this the other night, and one of them brought this point up. Yes, Alyssa should have been more forthcoming, but Holden was still severely overreacting. The threesome suggestion was ridiculous, and any sane person should have seen that immediately. Had Holden listened a little more closely to Silent Bob, the whole breakup could have been avoided, IMO.

4

It’s definitely a good point and I agree with it. But I think it’s seperate from Holden’s hung-up though. Holden was not hung-up because she had slept with other men, it was mainly the kinda stuff she had been involved in. There is no telling that even if Amy had told Holden that once upon a time she used to date men, he still won’t have the hang-up on that particular threesome she had in her school days.

5

I think I understand his three-way suggestion. I don’t know it’s been a while since I’ve seen the movie. I think Holden secretly found Alyssa’s bisexuality (lesbianism?) incredibly profound, magical and seducing. It seemed to me, however, that Holden felt threatened, not only because she had more experience sexually than he did, but because of her attraction to both sexes, (for the most part women) made him feel like his role as a man wasn’t as… ‘specific’??? I don’t know how to describe it. It seems nowadays that the role of a man is less and less ‘specialized’. Simplistically speaking, their only REAL job, (that women can’t duplicate), for keeping the human race going is to produce sperm. Women then carry birth and nurture the child. Soon, would we even NEED men to reproduce? (That’s a serious question, perhaps the day will come when we don’t need women?). Then there’s the broader way of viewing things… women are now taking on what were generally considered the roles of a male. They are also sex symbols.

I think that fact that she mainly ‘fell for’ women was incredibly enchanting, and haunting at the same time.

Perhaps men often have to look forward to being the ‘ideal’ for females in search of a mate or SO. Holden, obviously having some sort of bond or admiration for Bankly, used that to balance out the inadequate feeling’s he had. It would have put he and Alyssa on the same level. At least in his own mind. Lesbianism, generally more excepted (and more arousing) than male homosexuality. Granted, the attention lesbianism gets from TV, movies, and college students isn’t always flattering. Quite often it isn’t loving, just exciting and pleasing to those who like to watch. It’s still more widely excepted. This, I think, is Holdens way of perhaps, feeling liberated in more ways than one. Admitting his attraction to Bankly, liberating his sexual options to compete with Alyssa’s, and feeling more desired as male, because he himself has a slight attraction for them.

Any way, as a man, that’s how I used to feel. I’m sorry if I couldn’t properly explain it. When I saw this movie, that’s how it spoke to me.

It WAS; however, pretty dumb to suggest this… but I don’t think its inclusion into the story was dumb. In fact, I liked that part of the movie most of all.

6

It’s been some time since I last saw the film, but I think that Alyssa never actually outright told him the lie that she’d never been with a man before. Rather, he assumed it from the start, and she let him believe it, initially by steering their intial conversation about virginity into what exactly it meant and how one lost it.

I always liked his threeway “solution” as an amplified example of just how spectacularly stupid people can be–even, or especially, bright people–in trying to over-analyze relationship problems that are often quite simple (perhaps insoluble, but simple). It was exaggerated, of course, but all screen relationships tend to be for time constraints.

7

I’m pretty sure she told him that she’d only been with women.

I think the problem was thatalthough she lied to Holden about having only been with women, it wasn’t this that he cared about it. If he was upset that he’d lied to her, then he’d have a point. But his issue was insecurity over her past, not anything to do with a trusting relationship between them.

8

Regardless of her lying, his real hangup was with the types of things she had done. It made him feel as though he could never be enough.

Now, despite Silent Bob’s speech, just becuase she is with him now doesn’t mean that everything is hunkey dorey. lets face it, She USED to think that women were the way to go. the suddenly she decided she likes a guy now. What’s to stop her from changing her mind again? Because she says so?

Sure there is an element of trust that should exist in a relationship, but her track record speaks against how much he should trust her on a stability front.

Let’s say I didn’t know what to do with my life. So I spend my younger years partying it up. Boozing, drinking, and moving from job to job, city to city. The one day I find this city that I really like. I decide to settle down and become resposible…this is what I had always been looking for. If the people of that twon discovered my ways of my youth, should they suddenly believe me when i tell them “that’s not me anymore”? Takes some time to build that trust.

9

Worst. Kevin Smith movie. Ever. It had so much potential and fell so flat. The best part was the gay black militant guy… and that’s not saying much. Jason Lee of course delivered a great “best buddy” role, and his “What’s a nubian?” Line was beautiful.

To the OP: Absolutely correct. I felt the same way. The three way suggestion was kinda “out of bounds”, but her dishonesty would have ended the relationship with any guy who’s been screwd over before.

10

But by that same token, what’s to stop anyone from changing their mind about the guy or girl they’re with? At some point, you have to practice a little faith if the relationship is gonna have a chance.

I think Holden was wimp. If he wanted to know about her past, he should have asked directly. The scene where he was indirectly questioning her in the bleachers was painful to watch. Everybody within an earshot knew what he was getting at, but he didn’t have the balls to say it up front.

I don’t think she ever claimed to be virgin. And I don’t think it’s appropriate to call or assume someone a virgin who is an admittedly sexually active adult. And if was that hung up about some choices she made as a teen, he wasn’t the partner she needed.

11

It’s been awhile, but IIRC curing the conversation that took place while they were sitting on the swing set she did say quite explicitly that she’d only ever “dated” women which led Holden to say, quite stupidly, “Omigod, so you’re still a virgin!”

I don’t think she ever explicitly said she had “never had sex with” men, but at some point during the conversation you’d think it would have come up – particularly after Holden’s boneheaded “you’re still a virgin” exclamation wherein he made it pretty clear that he thought she meant that she’d never been with a man. You’d figure she’d have corrected him.

OTOH, rather than a malicious omission, she may have simply not wished to encourage him. You’d be amazed at how persistent a guy can be if he thinks he can “change your mind” with the logic that “she slept with guys before, maybe she will again… with me!..” kind of way.

At the time of that conversation, she may have simply thought it would be more prudent if he thought there was utterly no hope.

12

She never explicitly stated anything about it on camera, but Holden was definitely under the impression that she had only been with women. When Banky told him the “fingercuffs” story, Holden got pissed and shouted “Look, she’s never even been with a guy!”

Incidentally, this is probably my favorite movie, and I’ve probably seen it about 20 times, so let me know if you need any quotes. :smiley:

13

Plus, the things you’d share with your Sig Other are different than those you offer “just a friend.”

The swing conversation was not during their relationship.

Does this make a difference?
Plus, I can’t help thinking fanboy Smith missed an opportunity for an Obi Won “From a certain perspective” defense!

14

The scene on the swings is the key for the future problems. Alyssa “allowed” Holden to believe she had never been with a man. But since she wasn’t planning on hooking up with him it didn’t matter to her at that time. There is absolutely no reason to confide private embarrassing sexual history to someone who is not likely to be your future partner. Yeah, if you know the film you know they will hook up later. But they (esp. Alyssa) didn’t know that at that time.

Also, in that scene we also learn of Holden’s hangup with virginity. That scene reveals flaws in both characters that leads them down to the inevitable collision course. It is not a one sided situation. Both are responsible for what happens later.

It also is interesting that part of the story is based on Kevin Smiths’ own feelings of inadequacy compared to his then girlfriend’s (Joey Lauren Adams) past history in the sack. Holden’s reaction and poor handling of the matter reflects Real Life. So Silent Bob’s (Kevin Smith) little speech …

15

I don’t understand your last paragraph… Kevin Smith was with JLA? And JLA (in real life) is bisexual?

16

Diff T yes and no one has specified details, resp., AFAIK.

Affleck really kidded Smith a lot over the make out scenes.

Other oddities of “Chasing Amy”. Alyssa’s gal pal is Banky’s real life wife. In the post-hockey game rant, Alyssa admits to a threesome that included JLA’s character in “Mall Rats”. I.e., she slept with herself in some sense. Here are the two standard “Askew Universe” sites:

http://www.viewaskew.com

http://www.newsaskew.com

17

I took a girl to see this movie, and she though Holden was being arrogant for suggesting the threesome. I said he wasn’t arrogant. He was stupid! My philosophy is never attribute to malice what can easily be explained by stupidty. He thought the threesome idea was the answer because he was an IDIOT!

We got back to her place, and she told her roommate about the scene. The roommate agreed with her, so I guess it’s a girl/guy thing.

18

Somebody explain what ‘fingertrap’ is to me?

19

Not fingertrap, fingercuff. As in those woven-paper tubes used as party favors. You stick your index fingers into the holes on the ends and pull, and the tension of the weave keeps your fingers trapped. To be released, you have to press inward to expand the weave.

As far as how sticking things into the holes on the two ends relates to two men and a woman having sex, I’ll let you use your imagination.

20

If Holden pussed out anywhere it was on the swingset, not on the bleachers.

I think you missed something in the part about everybody within earshot knowing what he was getting at. It was a joke. Those guys that he had never even met before couldn’t possibly have known that he was trying to ask her if she sucked Coey London’s dick while Rick Derris fucked her in high school. Get it?

I always thought it was one of the funniest parts of the movie, blended perfectly into one of the most serious parts of the movie. That’s what I love about Chasing Amy, it’s a tragic comedy.