Columbine II, The Sequel

Great Debates
1

Yesterday Al Joseph deGuzman was apprehended by police as he picked up pictures of himself in possession of an illegal explosives cache. The alert Long’s photo lab employee (herself the daughter of an active San Jose police officer) was able to detain Guzman long enough for police to arrive and take him into custody after a brief attempt to escape.

This 19 year old student at De Anza Junior College in Cupertino, California had specific plans to enter the school cafeteria at 12:30 in the afternoon and precipitate the slaughter of as many people possible. In Guzman’s bedroom at home police found dozens of bombs and Molotov cocktails (60 in total) along with high power weapons and ammunition. There was also a tape recording of Guzman apologizing to his and other families for what he was about to do.

This is no sort of teenage fantasy being played out here. This was an attempt at cold blooded mass murder. It is nearly impossible to imagine the motives for such an act. That anyone would do so strictly for the sake of notoriety (as all evidence points to in this case) goes beyond the realm of psychopathology and into the world of lunacy. The bombs were equipped with timing devices, an indication of the extent of mayhem that was intended.

I can only hope that the judge and jury in this trial make sure this sick individual never again sees the light of day. Mandatory life imprisonment without possibility of parole is the only reasonable punishment for such an unprovoked and malignant attempt upon the lives of so many innocents. Swift work by the police managed an evacuation of the campus without a single injury or mishap. One can only dread to think of the loss of life that might have occurred had the photo lab employee been more lax in her work. That Guzman photographed himself for “posterity” with his explosives only serves to magnify the evil self-aggrandizement he was attempting.

Recent investigations have turned up a website run by Guzman that praises the Columbine killers and shows how to build bombs. He goes on to spew hatred for all humanity and the wish to kill everyone. This maggot was completely anti-social and a threat to all.

While I shall refrain from any attempt at analyzing his motives, I wonder if there is anyone here at the boards who would argue for less than permanent and irrevocable confinement for this twisted individual. Any attempt to “one up” the Columbine massacre should be signal for the harshest penalties of the law imaginable. Please respond.

2

Well…

You will get no arguement from me that this guy should be locked up in an institution for the insane. He should be seeing a whole team of psychriatrists. (no-way that’s spelled right)

Do you really think he wanted to one up the Columbine Kids?

Why do you think he took those photos and had them developed?

Was he just stupid? (Smart of enought to build bombs and obtain all those weapons)

Or was he hoping (on some level) to be caught?
Something to think about.
(I sense a move to GD coming soon)

3

Pretty scary stuff. I can practically see De Anza College out my window here in San Jose. DeGuzman lived a few blocks from here; I recognized the neighborhood in the news reports.

Man, I thought I was immune to thoughts of “that stuff happens in other people’s neighborhoods”, but I was taken aback. Guess my smalltown Rhode Island roots are showing…

4

How about we go about trying to figure out why he did what he did instead of instantly locking him up? Try to learn from him? Seems a waste to let that kind of mind die.

5

How about we wait till he’s found guilty.

6

How about if we learn from him while he whimpers something about “…being a good prison wife…”

Self-portrait of him with his arsenal… Self tape-recorded confession to his parents and friends. Hatred of humanity website, sure scratchie let him out on bail. How about at your front door? I seem to recall that this maggot lives near you… Are you sure about this?

Innocent until proven guilty… no problem. Major threat to those around him? Let him effing rot without bail!

7

Oh, cut it out.

8

Judge, jury and executioner, eh, Zenster? Must be nice to live in a world with exactly two colors. (Guess which ones and win valuable prizes!)

Now, if this guy is found guilty by a jury or judge, or pleads guilty, and there are no extenuating circumstances, I say lock him away forever. But look at your OP:

“This is no sort of teenage fantasy being played out here. This was an attempt at cold blooded mass murder.”

“I can only hope that the judge and jury in this trial make sure this sick individual never again sees the light of day.”

“That anyone would do so strictly for the sake of notoriety (as all evidence points to in this case) . . .”

“While I shall refrain from any attempt at analyzing his motives . . .”

Too late. You’ve already analyzed them, looked at all the evidence, and tried and convicted him.

Now, you are not, to the best of my recollection, an attorney. You definitely are not the District Attorney for Cupertino, California. You have seen nothing but news reports and perhaps a website, yet you are going to presume to tell us what “all the evidence” points to? Bub, you haven’t seen all the evidence. In fact, you haven’t seen any evidence, nor will you, aside from what appears in the news media.

Furthermore, there’s every possibility that this individual could have a mental illness. That certainly doesn’t excuse his actions, although it can mitigate or alter the penalties. If he is mentally ill, he should be sent to an institution where he can be confined and, if possible, treated. In the America I live in, we do not send insane people to prison to, in your words, “[be] a good prison wife.”

Christ, please tell me you are an illegal alien, or a felon, or otherwise ineligible to serve on a jury in this country. The legal system does not need people who make their judgements before they hear the facts and the evidence.

9

Zenster is neither judge, jury, or executioner, he is a private citizen making a reasonable judgement about Guzman’s guilt based on reliable reports of evidence. If he was on a jury he should listen to all the evidence with an open mind but since he is a private citizen posting on the internet he is under no such obligation.
I am not in favor of the death penalty but this creep should never get out of jail til they carry him out.

10

Well, I disagree, puddleglum.

He spends five paragraphs engaging in loaded language (although certainly some anger and fear are justified) concerning a case about which he knows nothing except what he sees in the media, going so far as to make conclusions about what “all the evidence points to,” as if he’s privy to it.

He then disingenuously “refrain[s] from any attempt at analyzing his motives,” which he just spent the prior five paragraphs doing.

Finally, he oh-so-boldly challenges anyone to disagree with his brilliant legal conclusions and sentencing recommendation. This guy hasn’t even been charged, indicted or arraigned, AFAIK, let alone convicted. To speculate on what his sentence should be is little more than self-congratulatory rabble-rousing.

I’m not sure if we’re supposed to be more impressed by Zenster’s legal acumen, righteous indignation, or tough-on-crime recommendation that the suspect be raped in prison. Frankly, none of them really bowls me over.

11

yeah… what pld said

12

How about if we don’t convict him based on evidence you, someone who clearly doesn’t like the guy, have found? How about we don’t believe everything you’ve read and don’t believe that you simultaneously convict him and separate yourself from the situation? As pldennison said, “This is no sort of teenage fantasy being played out here. This was an attempt at cold blooded mass murder.” and “While I shall refrain from any attempt at analyzing his motives,” are not congruent statements.

“I wonder if there is anyone here at the boards who would argue for less than permanent and irrevocable confinement for this twisted individual.”

As he’s not yet been convicted, how about we don’t do the job ourselves, but let those more qualified handle it? I don’t recall, either, you mentioning that you had done a complete and thorough medical examination of the man and had found him to be completely sane.

deGuzman has yet to be convicted of any actual crime. And there is certainly more to learn from this man by talking to him or listening to what he has to say than by locking him up and throwing away the key. Is it not wise to examine a wound when it shows up before covering it up or cutting it off?

13

Thanks puddleglum for reading my post completely. I make no recommendation to bypass our legal system in the trial of this individual. Private citizens are not required to assume that a person is innocent until proven guilty in an open court. If I were to serve on a jury, you bet that I would follow the letter of the law.

Sick little fucknuggets like Guzman need a strong message sent to him and anyone else contemplating such a crime. As it is, Guzman now faces 120 felony counts of possession and possession with intent to harm. The fact that the defendant was in possession of a sawed off shotgun and a sawed off rifle is a clear demonstration of his evil intentions. If that is not enough, please remember that some of the bombs also had nails attached to them to maximize their killing power. The district attorney is very wisely pursuing prosecution that will result in Guzman spending the rest of his natural life in prison.

At some point, society is obliged to take a stand against this sort of madness. Guzman’s lawyer is attempting to dismiss this as some sort of teenage fantasy. Soft pedalling this kind of diseased mentality fosters its continuing existence. All people must rally in the condemnation of such anti-social and psychotic behavior. To worship the Columbine killers as people to admire is a strong indication that Guzman was serious and all of this was no fantasy.

14

I read the enire OP and agree with pldennsion. You never say we should bypass due process, but it seems quite clear in your post that you already have bypassed it in your mind, based on what you’ve heard through the media.

**

IIRC, the defending attorney’s job is to defend his client, regardless of how he feels about his client. I don’t see the lawyer as “soft-pedaling”, he’s trying to do the job he’s supposed to do. The system isn’t perfect, but it’s what we have.

**

So here you call the actions madness and psychotic. From these two words I infer that you think deGuzman is mentally unstable. If he is, he belongs in a mental institution where he can hopefully be treated, not in prison where “he whimpers something about ‘…being a good prison wife…’”

Zenster, you seem to be jumping to conclusions based on the bits of information you’ve heard, when as pld says, you do not have ALL the facts. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not taking one side or the other here yet, I’m waiting to hear more of the facts for myself. I’ve only heard bits and pieces about this incident. Columbine was a tragedy, and I think we should all be thankful this tragedy was avoided.

And puddleglum**

What reliable reports? In Zenster’s three posts, I’ve yet to see where he got his information. Was it from the newspaper, the local news, network news, internet. I’m surprised no one’s asked Zenster for links before now. If the information is from the TV: it’s sweeps weeks folks. Even the news is known to sensationalize for ratings.

15

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Zenster *
**

Well, no, we’re not required under sworn oath the way jurors are, but I think there is an obligation nonetheless. Otherwise it’s trial by pulicity, innuendo, gossip, etc. This hasn’t even been investigated in full, much less tried. The simple fact remains we don’t know the facts.

**

Good grief, Zenster, he hasn’t even had his day in court yet! Give fairness and the law a chance first. It’s way too early to label him as anything other than “charged with”, much less rejoice in an inevitable life sentence. Remember Richard Jewell who was tried in the press, excoriated and then–well, oops, turns out he was innocent? You’re rushing to judgment.

**

'Scuse me, but society also has an obligation to stand against the madness of trial-by-media. Insistence on due process is a more positive action against “anti-social and psychotic behavior” than snap judgments.

Veb

16

trial, blah, innocent until proven blah blah, court of public opinion blah blah blah, poor misunderstood youth blah blah

get the damn trial over with so they can fry the bastard

On a tangent, I am so impressed with the the gal who turned him in. She worked at the photo shop, saw pictures he had sent in for processing of him with guns and bombs, called her father who was a cop and he told her to call 911. Called 911, hung up, looked out at the customers in the shop and saw him there. Delayed him with questions about ID, can’t find the pictures, just be a second until the cops showed up. Amongst the sawed off shotguns, molotov cocktails and bombs they found cassettes and papers with detailed plans for the crime. They literally caught him hours before the planned attack.

17

Of course, we must first find out what music he listened to, what movies he saw, what video games he played, etc…

Wouldn’t it be friggin’ great if it turned out he was a big John Tesh fan?

18

The evidence that has been turned up is so overwhelming and damning as to be rather convincing. There are few if any mitigating factors in this case. The fact that the defendant has no prior history of violence is strongly negated by his worship of the Columbine killers.

However much the publicity is driving this case, the incontrovertible facts of the case point towards a clear cut intention to kill as many innocent people without remorse.

If I seem to be more than a little fed up with this sort of behavior, well, I AM! Callous disregard for human life seems to have somehow insinuated itself into modern society. It continues to fester in the personae of people like Guzman.

When we have the collective courage to stand united against this insidious disease of malicious intent and disrespect for our social contract, we will all be better off. I do not advocate circumventing the legal system in any way. I also do not advocate the ridiculous “zero tolerance” policies currently being implemented in schools these days. I do advocate stronger penalties for attempts at this sort of mayhem.

The evidence that has been seized in this case so far blatantly indicates complete self adsorption in what is obviously a very malign plot. Without disputing the putative guilt or innocence of Guzman, his possession of the bombs alone indicate the extent of his violent intent.

Imagine, if you will, what might have occurred if their had been a home fire at the Guzman residence. His own family and untold numbers of emergency personell might have lost their lives trying to rescue this little creep. To accumulate such a cache of lethal arms that can serve no legitimate purpose solidifies my perception of the criminal intent involved.

Here’s your link.
Bill H said it quite well. It was hours from the time of his intended acts.

Some AOL news quotes:

Law enforcement officials have described DeGuzman, a former high school yearbook editor, as filled with rage and hate. They say his writings repeatedly hail Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold, the teenage gunmen who killed 15 people including themselves in a bloody shooting spree at Colorado’s Columbine High School in 1999.

Police found dozens of explosives and weapons in DeGuzman’s room of his parents’ San Jose home on Monday, only hours before police say DeGuzman planned to start planting bombs at his school.

``People fantasize - they don’t go out and collect the material to build 60 bombs. That’s beyond fantasy,’’ said Santa Clara County Deputy District Attorney Lane Liroff.

19

Yeah, well said. That’s the attitude that made America great. :rolleyes:
I do agree with you on one thing - the girl should be commended. But as you said, that’s a tangent.

TVeblen - was Richard Jewell the Olympic security guard who found the bomb and then accused of planting it himself so he could play hero? If not, please refresh my memory. I believe the aftermath of the Olympic deal was the guard received an undisclosed amount of money from NBC and was given air time on TV to refute the accusations against him. NBC admitted to reporting erroneous information in a rush to be the first to air the story.

And Zenster - thanks for the link, I’ll read it presently. During the hours I work (4-midnight), I don’t see the news too often, so I haven’t heard as much about this as some people.

My argument isn’t whether the man had violent intent. My whole problem with the OP is the automatic response that he be sent to life in prison when deGuzman has yet to have a trial date set. FTR, I don’t like the “teenage fantasy” defense and hope that he changes to an insanity plea (far more believable to me). I personally am in favor of capital punishment, so let’s try to refrain from painting me as a bleeding heart (I know, no one’s done it yet, just want to nip it in the bud).

I served in the military for 4 years to defend the rights and freedoms of the people in this country (ok, I didn’t do all alone, but that’s what the military is there for). I still carry those feelings of defend the citizens’ freedoms and believe very strongly in due process. I realize you never state that a lynch mob should be rounded up to go after deGuzman and don’t mean to imply that you personally condone the circumventing of our legal processes. But your OP strongly implies that we use deGuzman to set an example to anyone else comtemplating a similar act. In essence, railroading him through a trial and into prison.

How about we let him see a psychiatrist before sending him to prison? If he is declared insane, he belongs in a mental institution, not prision. If it turns out he knew right from wrong and fully realized the consequences of what he was planning to do, then I’ll be one of the first to celebrate when he gets sentenced to life in prison and not give him a second thought.

You also state, “If I were to serve on a jury, you bet that I would follow the letter of the law.” Are you trying to say you be a suitable juror at this trial? That’s ridiculous. It’s obvious you have already formed your opinion and are completely biased against deGuzman. You may WANT to follow the letter of the law and try to have an open mind, but subconsciously you’ll have already convicted him.

20

**

No it doesn’t. I completely disagree with your interpretation of events. That’s why we’re having a trial. To determine guilt or innocence.

**

Not to be rude or anything, but I see heaps of callous disregard for people’s rights in your posts in this thread? Prison Rape? That’s sick.

**

Coulda fooled me. Prison rape is illegal, and not anything to laugh about or joke about. Yet you had no problem stating that he should be raped. Care to apologize and tone down your statements?

**

Why? What’s the point? Do you honestly think that someone would be deterred by that? Someone who would do this is mentally ill, they need treatment.

**

No, they do not.

**

Either that, or he just didn’t htink about it, or he’s fascinated with guns, or he’s mentally ill.