No, he said that it was a corny joke and that he thought it was old enough to be harmless.
He was clearly wrong in that thought and gives no indication whatsoever that he does not realise that.
Is that the only thing you can respond to in the entire post?
pan
God, the irony is thick and delicious. You just proved my point.
Oh, right, TaxGuy - you didn’t intend to attack me in your first post, and I’m just reading into it.
Fuck you.
Esprix
Really? Where’s his apology?
And I will reiterate that I intentionally did not want to make this about Baldwin or any of the specific comments (or posters) on this board, but it was those comments that angered me about the cavalcade of similar comments I’ve heard time and time and time again, and I’d just reached my steam point.
Esprix
So… you paraphrased a comment from him in the text of a link to the page in which the comment was made, called the person who made the comment “…an ignorant choad whose swaggering machismo makes you out to be exactly the fuckhead you truly are…”, and explained how your shame at his comments makes you want to “make more lesbian friends.” (Surely there’s better reasons to befriend people than as a symbolic reaction to other people’s ignorance about their particular race, gender or sexual identity? Just sayin’…)
But you don’t want anyone to “make” the thread about specific posters or specific comments. And Baldwin’s free to apologize -to you- for mouthing a lame cliched attitude about lesbians while complimenting a lesbian in a thread (not your thread) discussing ignorant attitudes about lesbians.
Maybe it’s just because I know you’re talking about a person who, if I remember your approximate age correctly, actually has been actively fighting discrimination and ignorance longer than you’ve been alive, but I feel compelled to say: get over yourself.
I think perhaps most lesbians will survive just fine without your deconstructive moral analyses of joke-posters, and I think perhaps most SDMB participants require a bit more evidence than the repetition of a crude cliché to justify the moral condemnation of their fellow posters —even by implication.
If you want to morally condemn anti-gay/lesbian attitudes in general, than do so in a general way; by attaching specific comments as illustrative of “ignorant choads”, you made the thread about specific posters.
FWIW, as a straight guy, I think that many, if not most, straight guys don’t really want to watch a lesbian couple do it, or “do” a lesbian couple, what they want is to watch two straight girls who like to play with each other if only to get the guy excited. Unfortunately, this is called “lesbianism” instead of “group sex” or “an orgy.” I know people like this, and the woman of the hetero couple is not a lesbian, or bi, has no interest in lesbianism, or bi, but likes playing with straight women on occasion.
Couple that with the ignorant among us think that actual lesbians would like to be “straight-orgy-women” and that is why guys will offer money to lesbians, treating them like sexual candy machines.
xeno, if I had wanted to flame Baldwin specifically, I would have specifically mentioned his name and directed my remarks specifically to him. I used his remarks as an example and as a reference as to what kind of attitude I was ranting about. Yes, he did something I found offensive, but he’s surely not the only one. My intention was to rail against all such usages, not just his. The “you” was meant to be directed to those who make such remarks, not specifically or only Baldwin.
It was a turn of phrase, not meant to be taken literally.
You’re right, he is free to apologize to someone he insulted - just like I was free to apologize to Shayna and the straight people that I offended inadvertently. Hmmm. Isn’t that interesting…
Then maybe he should have known better.
I see. So the fact that I was offended is completely irrelevant, since “most lesbians will survive just fine” without me. Great. Thanks for that update.
Esprix
Esprix, here’s your update: the fact that you were offended by the specific usage by Baldwin of that lame half-witticism is the only relevant use you could make of a cite to it. Instead, you assigned to him, on the basis of that one usage, all the sins of oversexed, overly aggressive, self-involved assholes who harass lesbians anywhere in the world. That was arrogant and presumptive, and that’s the beef I have with you over this. That’s the only point I’m trying to make to you here. Instead of bluntly stating to Baldwin that you found that joke offensive, you instantly flew off the handle over what has now become blindingly obvious was an ironically intended usage of that chestnut and projected the soul of Fred Phelps onto a poster you’ve never even interacted with before. You would not stand for that treatment by others, and I’ll be damned if I see my friend smeared by that treatment from you.
Posted by Esprix:
Didn’t realize you were waiting for an apology. If I inadvertently offended any lesbians, I do apologize to them; that was definitely not my intention.
As for you, however, let me quote a line Peter Falk delivered in the recent movie Undisputed:
“I’m sorry; did I offend you? Fuck you!”
Frankly, Dude, I’m starting to think you’re a bit of a muttonhead. However, I’ve not yet regretted an act of generosity, and I’m not going to start here. I’m still going to ignore all of your slightly hysterical statements here, and will gladly read your posts anywhere else, without prejudice. That’s the kind of guy I am.
By the way, I went to see Finding Nemo today; good movie, in large part because of the excellent voice talents involved (Albert Brooks, Ellen Degeneres and Geoffrey Rush, to name a few).
xeno, I can’t explain any clearer that I was only using his remark as the most current example of something I’ve heard over and over and over and over and over again in real life and online, so I guess I’ll just have to settle for being a jerk to you.
And as to this:
And, for the umpteenth time, I’ve already apologized for this, twice. What more do I need to do before you let it go?
Esprix
Thank you. Despite the debacle of this thread, I hope I never hear those words from you again.
Yeah, gee, swell, thanks. Proves once again that I don’t count. I’m a “muttonhead” because I find offensive things offensive. Whatever.
Have a spiffy day.
Esprix
So in conclusion, it would have been better to create a thread explaining why the joke is offensive, rather than making huge generalizations and going way overboard on people who made lame jokes.
Usually, a joke like “I am a lesbian trapped in a man’s body” is sort of a way for a straight man to claim lesbianism for himself. It tries to turn lesbian sex from being between only the participants, to being a show for the man. It tries to insinuate the man into the lesbian’s love life. It is usually based purely on sexuality: the man likes women, so does the lesbian; they have so much in common! It is also perceived as similar to men who ask to watch or join in, although it is likely the person making the joke did not have that in mind. In the case of the joke, it is better to explain why it is offensive. It is not the same as asking to watch or join in, and it is not as self explanatory.
The other side is that I think there are times when the words themselves should not be offensive. There are people who are not turned on by lesbians, and would never want to watch lesbians together, but who could still feel something like what is expressed by the words of the joke. For them the sexuality is irrelevent. The sentiment is based on an attraction to an actual person, rather than to their sexuality. What if you are a man who is very attracted to a woman who you find out is a lesbian? What if you like the same things, get along great, and think they are your soulmate? You might wish that your gender did not get in the way. Then the words would mean something like “My soulmate is a lesbian, I should be one too.” This shouldn’t be offensive.
I still don’t feel I went “way overboard,” except inadvertently implicating the entirety of the straight male population. Everyone else seems to think I did, but I stand by it.
And not every thread has to be a Great Debate - sometimes you just want to vent. I reached my steam point, and I did.
Which he has absolutely no business doing, IMHO. This is why I find it so fucking ignorant and offensive, for all the reasons you described so well.
And I don’t believe I ever talked about the instances of the phrases outside the examples I provided - as purile, ignorant “jokes” that I find offensive.
Can we let this thread die now? I think everyone’s made their point.
Esprix
Actually, let’s let this thread dies. GD is making me want to start a new Pit thread.
I thought I posted something on this, but I took your OP as a very obvious “I don’t want to feel this way about straight guys, but you are making it harder for me?” which doesn’t itself paint straight guys as anything at all. The implication that the bad behavior of one person inclines one to falsely generalize to a group is not itself a stereotype: in fact it’s a recognition both of the stereotype and the fact that we’re human and have to fight against this tendancy all the time.
And furthermore I…[/thread]
On the plus side, nobody (I think) made an irredeemable ass of themself in this thread…
[sub]And would I be an irredeemable ass if I made a lame “let’s all kiss and make up, but get your hand off my knee” type of joke?[/sub]
Hmm, that thread tag didn’t work right for some reason. 
Let’s try again… [/thread]