D & D on the Straight Dope setup thread. (In Middle Earth FA63)

[What_Exit]

I like that D_Odds, good points on Samwise, I would give Merry a level or two over Sam though and more later, but that is only due to the history for the game I have laid out.

Frodo was difficult to give a class to. He does not really fit in terms of D&D.

I like your take on trying to give Gandalf a value, but it is hard to measure his abilities in game terms. A rule of thumb of F10/MU40+ seems fear, but I can’t really back it up with the spells he used. Now he some sort of incredibly strong stealth magic to sneak into Dol Guldur. We know there was little he could not do with fire and he could throw up a Wizard lock that a Balrog could not Knock but I am not sure how to define most of his magic. The same is true of Saruman I think. It is hard to define them in game terms.

The Witchking to me is a power spectre with MU/Cleric abilities. So we are on the same page. I can’t see him being more than 20/20 though, so it would have to be a bigger gap then 7 levels for me.

Aragorn was untouched in battle with orcs in every encounter, from Moria through the final battle outside the gates of Mordor. I don’t think you give him enough credit.

How many there were the Company could not count. The affray was sharp,
but the orcs were dismayed by the fierceness of the defense. Legolas shot
two through the throat. Gimli hewed the legs from under another that had
sprung up on Balin’s tomb. Boromir and Aragorn slew many. When thirteen had
fallen the rest fled shrieking.

In a quick round it appears Boromir and Aragorn slew 10 large orcs. Gandalf saw Uruks of Mordor, not the more typical Goblins of the Misty Mountains.

In the next round a huge orc chieftain drove through and got Frodo with his spear and “Andúril came down upon his helm. There was a flash
like flame and the helm burst asunder.”

Can you doubt what he did at Helm’s Deep and on the Fields of Pelennor?

As to Gimli, I think he grew in experience and mind swiftly in the War of the Rings. Maybe I should downgrade Legolas a bit so Gimli can have caught up to him, but Gimli semi-retired to run a kingdom and Legolas was much more active in the years following the war. Founding a kingdom of Ithilien was more dangerous than founding one in Aglarond.

Glorfindel showed no signs of clerical powers, he had some healing ability and a great ability to turn undead. The Witch King appeared to be fearful of him as Glorfindel led those that finally drove him out of Angmar. I think he fits the 1st Ed Paladin fairly well as they turn as a cleric -2 levels. He seemed to have some small magics available, including telling the future.

Elrohir and Elladan spent over a thousand years hunting and killing orcs in revenge for the harm done to their Mom. That was my main justification for their levels. It is that whole thousand plus years that gets me to rate them very high.

[D_Odds]

@What Exit?

Aragorn was untouched in battle with orcs in every encounter, from Moria through the final battle outside the gates of Mordor. I don’t think you give him enough credit.

Can you doubt what he did at Helm’s Deep and on the Fields of Pelennor?

I specifically kept my mention to Moria and Boromir’s fall. He went up faster than all.

As to Gimli, I think he grew in experience and mind swiftly in the War of the Rings. Maybe I should downgrade Legolas a bit so Gimli can have caught up to him, but Gimli semi-retired to run a kingdom and Legolas was much more active in the years following the war. Founding a kingdom of Ithilien was more dangerous than founding one in Aglarond.

I was referring to the time period during the books, not after.

Glorfindel showed no signs of clerical powers, he had some healing ability and a great ability to turn undead.

Those are clerical powers, but also fit a high level Paladin. What was Glorfindel’s preferred weapon - if it is sharp, it answers the question in 1e DnD terms.

Elrohir and Elladan spent over a thousand years hunting and killing orcs in revenge for the harm done to their Mom. That was my main justification for their levels. It is that whole thousand plus years that gets me to rate them very high.

I feel that by the end of the War of the Rings, Aragorn was their equal. I’ve always felt that the race of Man must raise faster, as they can be just as competent in learned skills (as opposed to inherent racial traits) and their longer lived Elven counterparts. In our campaign terms, Gil-Gandel has at least a century on me, yet in terms of experience we are roughly equal, with his racial traits shifting a few things in his favor.

[Elendil_s_Heir]

re: Elladan and Elrohir…

Well, sure. After a thousand years fooling around with bow and arrows, even I could hit the target more often than not!

[D_Odds]

Missed the edit window:
I rated the Witch King as high as I did because he thought he could stand up to Gandalf, so he had to have considerable heft…not that Gandalf was doing much overtly with magic except against similarly leveled foes (Balrog, Saruman). That was due to restrictions on the Wizards, in my opinion, not because of lack of power.

Didn’t miss the edit window this time:
After awhile, no matter how many orcs you kill, you just won’t be moving up in level. 20 orcs at 5 xp each are great between level 2 and 3, okay between level 5 and 6, and meaningless between 29 and 30.

[What_Exit]

@D_Odds

I specifically kept my mention to Moria and Boromir’s fall. He went up faster than all.

I was referring to the time period during the books, not after.
Those are clerical powers, but also fit a high level Paladin. What was Glorfindel’s preferred weapon - if it is sharp, it answers the question in 1e DnD terms.
I feel that by the end of the War of the Rings, Aragorn was their equal. I’ve always felt that the race of Man must raise faster, as they can be just as competent in learned skills (as opposed to inherent racial traits) and their longer lived Elven counterparts. In our campaign terms, Gil-Gandel has at least a century on me, yet in terms of experience we are roughly equal, with his racial traits shifting a few things in his favor.

Well Aragorn already had a crazy high tracking and healing skill before the War. I will agree he might have caught the brothers by the end of the war. I had him start at 20th and gain 5-10 levels. That would place him on par with the brothers. We are not so far off, we are differing more on where Aragorn started and thus ended up in level.

Glorfindel used a Sword. A large Sword if I recall and he was a rather large Elf. So Paladin probably comes the closest for game terms.

@D_Odds

Missed the edit window:
I rated the Witch King as high as I did because he thought he could stand up to Gandalf, so he had to have considerable heft…not that Gandalf was doing much overtly with magic except against similarly leveled foes (Balrog, Saruman). That was due to restrictions on the Wizards, in my opinion, not because of lack of power.

I don’t think the Witch King could actually stand against Gandalf the White. They each got distracted before the crucial showdown by other needs of battle, but I believe the Witch King would have been disincorporated yet again.

Gandalf the Grey’s powers were only kept to a minimal. Mainly he acted to move others to act. Gandalf the White on the other hand easily defeated Saruman who was once greater. When he road out to rescue Faramir, he briefly revealed himself and was far more powerful than the Nazgul.

At that moment he caught a flash of
white and silver coming from the North, like a small star down on the dusky
fields. It moved with the speed of an arrow and grew as it came, converging
swiftly with the flight of the four men towards the Gate. It seemed to
Pippin that a pale light was spread about it and the heavy shadows gave way
before it; and then as it drew near he thought that he heard, like an echo
in the walls, a great voice calling.
…
But now the dark swooping shadows were aware of the newcomer. One
wheeled towards him; but it seemed to Pippin that he raised his hand, and
from it a shaft of white light stabbed upwards. The Nazgûl gave a long
wailing cry and swerved away; and with that the four others wavered, and
then rising in swift spirals they passed away eastward vanishing into the
lowering cloud above; and down on the Pelennor it seemed for a while less
dark.

[D_Odds]

@What Exit?

I don’t think the Witch King could actually stand against Gandalf the White. They each got distracted before the crucial showdown by other needs of battle, but I believe the Witch King would have been disincorporated yet again.

Here we agree. I didn’t emphasize it, but the critical word in my sentence was that the Witch King thought he could take on Gandalf. To me, that indicated a mixture of hubris and considerable power.

[What_Exit]

@D_Odds

Here we agree. I didn’t emphasize it, but the critical word in my sentence was that the Witch King thought he could take on Gandalf. To me, that indicated a mixture of hubris and considerable power.

Much like he was sure that Derhelm could do him no harm.

[Elendil_s_Heir]

@What Exit?

Much like he was sure that Derhelm could do him no harm.

You said it… man.

[Elendil_s_Heir]

I’ve been thinking of the orc caves we left behind… is there some spell that’s the equivalent of poison gas or nerve gas, that would kill all the orcs inside as it settled, or force them out into the open? Might be a lot easier than fighting room-by-room with a platoon of dwarves.

[CatInASuit]

So Elfstan is only 29. A year younger than Mulligan then. Does the party realise what two teenage Hobbit Burglars can get up to ?

It’s Merry and Pippin all over again.

[Malacandra]

@Elendil's Heir

I’ve been thinking of the orc caves we left behind… is there some spell that’s the equivalent of poison gas or nerve gas, that would kill all the orcs inside as it settled, or force them out into the open? Might be a lot easier than fighting room-by-room with a platoon of dwarves.

Cloudkill, but it’s 5th level and probably wouldn’t take out the entire complex. Besides, in my opinion, even orcs don’t deserve that.

[RogueRacer]

Yeah, and they just turned us loose too…

[What_Exit]

A reminder for players, in the game thread, where possible, try to avoid using full reply quotes. The more you can make your replies in context the better. The thread flows and reads better with short quotes and no quotes.

Also as I know from Glee’s game, if you mention your character’s name in your post, it is easier on the other players. As the Ref I know who has what character, but it might not be as easy for player 1 to remember which character players 2-9 are playing.

BTW: Yes, Sting was seen by direct DM intervention, no disgrace upon the player. I rarely like to railroad players, but I had nothing in mind with this hunting party than a quick introductory slaughter. I mean combat. Sorry about that.

Hey Malacandra, three of the most famous Hobbits used Sting. Bilbo, Frodo and Samwise.

[Omi_no_Kami]

While we’re here, I’m curious to get the opinion of our Tolkien experts: even though elves are portrayed as being responsible for a lot of Middle Earth’s problems, they always seem to put on the distant, lawful good airs whenever humans are around. As such, would it be horrendously out of character for an elf to be violent and prejudicial in his decision-making process? (I’m thinking of Miron’s kneejerk “Hey, orcs! I’ll bet they’d look great in a dead heap on the ground” moment.)

[What_Exit]

@Omi no Kami

While we’re here, I’m curious to get the opinion of our Tolkien experts: even though elves are portrayed as being responsible for a lot of Middle Earth’s problems, they always seem to put on the distant, lawful good airs whenever humans are around. As such, would it be horrendously out of character for an elf to be violent and prejudicial in his decision-making process? (I’m thinking of Miron’s kneejerk “Hey, orcs! I’ll bet they’d look great in a dead heap on the ground” moment.)

There is no shortage of Elves that either think all orcs should be dead or think they are doing orcs a large favor by releasing them from the torments of their twisted existence. The Sons of Elrond are firmly in the category of the only good orc is a dead orc. The Khazad both love and respect the brothers Elladan and Elrohir, though even the Khazad are a little taken aback by how much they hate the orcs.

The outright orc hatred is most common to the Noldor, but not reserved to them.

I would be shocked by a Dwarf of Durin’s Folk (Khazad) that did not think all Orcs are better off dead. Obviously Moose had a deep disagreement about the idea of letting them live.

On the other side, general orcs and goblins are somehow descended from tormented, twisted elves of the first age from before the Sun ever arose. So some elves and humans feel orcs must be capable of redemption. There are some signs this is true, but they are quick to fall back to their evil ways when a strong evil leader is around. So far the Uruk Hai appear to be truly Evil Always. They are bred from more recent and apparently darker sorceries than the Orcs were.

ETA: I forgot to add, Tolkien suffered over this concept of the Orcs. He debated if they were even corrupted from Elves and if so then he felt they could not be irredeemable.

[Malacandra]

@What Exit?

A reminder for players, in the game thread, where possible, try to avoid using full reply quotes. The more you can make your replies in context the better. The thread flows and reads better with short quotes and no quotes.

Also as I know from Glee’s game, if you mention your character’s name in your post, it is easier on the other players. As the Ref I know who has what character, but it might not be as easy for player 1 to remember which character players 2-9 are playing.

BTW: Yes, Sting was seen by direct DM intervention, no disgrace upon the player. I rarely like to railroad players, but I had nothing in mind with this hunting party than a quick introductory slaughter. I mean combat. Sorry about that.

Hey Malacandra, three of the most famous Hobbits used Sting. Bilbo, Frodo and Samwise.

DYTIDNKT?
Yes, but Sam only had it on very temporary loan - its “bearers” were Bilbo and Frodo.

[Omi_no_Kami]

By the way, this might make things unnecessarily convoluted, but have we considered color-coding non-common languages before? Blue is reserved for spells, and green for out-of character dialogue, but it might be faster if, for instance, we took to using red for elvish, brown for dwarfish, gray for orcish, and so forth.

On the related note, could someone *please * set me straight: what are the differences between “elven” and “elfish”?

…I can’t believe I just asked that. :smack:

[What_Exit]

@Omi no Kami

By the way, this might make things unnecessarily convoluted, but have we considered color-coding non-common languages before? Blue is reserved for spells, and green for out-of character dialogue, but it might be faster if, for instance, we took to using red for elvish, brown for dwarfish, gray for orcish, and so forth.

On the related note, could someone *please * set me straight: what are the differences between “elven” and “elfish”?

…I can’t believe I just asked that. :smack:

I don’t use the term Elfish, is that from some edition of D&D?

I use Elven as a descriptive term, like Elven runes or Elven Language or Elven Cloak. I occasionally use Elvish as a noun denoting an Elven Language, but I try to use the more accurate terms like Quenyan or Sindarin and occasionally Silvan to denote a simpler, more rural dialect of Sindarin. I would typically think of Elvish as being an almost direct replacement for Sindarin as even the Noldor rarely speak Quenyan.

When Elwë Thingol learn of the kinslaying from Galadriel, he outlawed the use of Quenyan in his lands and eventually Quenyan fell out of usage in Middle Earth except as a dead language used by the oldest exiles and nobility and in Gondolin.

You’ll will probably recall that even in Lothlorien the Sindarin they spoke had drifted from the Elvish of Rivendell and Thranduil. In Rivendell both Sindarin and Quenyan was spoken.

(the above is from memory, there might be some small mistakes. You know what I love talking about more than anything else, Tolkien or Baseball. )

For far more about Elven Languages, check this Wiki article.

[NAF1138]

@Omi no Kami

By the way, this might make things unnecessarily convoluted, but have we considered color-coding non-common languages before? Blue is reserved for spells, and green for out-of character dialogue, but it might be faster if, for instance, we took to using red for elvish, brown for dwarfish, gray for orcish, and so forth.

I like it. I will start having Gwaelur use DarkRed when speaking in Dwarfish.

[Elendil_s_Heir]

Nitpicks: I believe that should be “Quenya,” not “Quenyan,” and “Dwarvish,” not “Dwarfish.”