Could some of the Judeo-Christians here explain to me the meaning of Daniel’s vision of the statue with feet of iron mixed with clay?
Well, the Book of Daniel, along with giving the description of the dream statue, also gives an interpretation of its meaning
As to what kingdoms are referred to by the statue, that’s debated. A lot of Christian biblical literalists believe that the book of Daniel was actually written by Daniel in the Babylonian court, and the book is a prophecy of future events, with the last kingdom, that’s destroyed by the stone, a future kingdom, possibly the European Union or something like that, which will be destroyed by the second coming of Jesus (the stone).
A lot of scholars, though, date the book to the time Jews were being persecuted by Antiochus, and they argue that the feet of clay is Antiochus’s kingdom, and the stone is the Messiah, who many Jews at the time believed was coming to defeat Antiochus.
That sounds a little problematic to me, since the number of intervening kingdoms is rather short…
Well, for the literalists the kingdoms are usually:
Gold-Babylon
Silver-Persia
Bronze-Macedon
Iron-Rome
Clay-European Union “Revived Roman Empire”
For the other group, it’s
Gold-Babylon
Silver-Medea
Bronze-Persia
Iron-Alexander/Macedon
Clay-Antiochus/Hellenic successor states
or
Gold-Babylon
Silver-Meda-Persia
Bronze-Greece
Iron-Rome
Clay/Iron-disintigrating Rome
Stone-Messiah/Christendom
How is the “divided empire” bit applied to Rome, or to the EU? (The application to Greece I’m already familiar with: Alexander’s empire was cut up after his death.)
Could someone remind me of who Antiochus was? Was he a successor to Seleucus?
And how do Christians address the fact that Daniel nowhere prophecies the reinstitution of the nation of Israel under the Maccabees?
To be precise, how do Christians who believe the prophecy relates to Jesus explain the absence of the Maccabees, between the Greeks and Romans?
Well, I had never heard of a claim that any of the statue kingdoms related to Jesus. Can you maybe expound?
Additionally, I wasn’t aware of a Maccabean empire. The statue was described as a prophecy of world kingdoms, as quoted by Captain Amazing.
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The version I was taught in school is that Daniel was predicting the time of the coming of Jesus: during the kingdom of iron and clay (Rome) the stone (Jesus) conquers all. The explanation didn’t even make sense to me at the time, and they never taught us about the Maccabeans.
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The Maccabeans threw off the Greek yoke and reinstituted the Israelite monarchy. It’s what Hanukkah is all about.
So Babylon, Persia, Macedon, and Rome ruled the world? I wonder what percentage of the people living during the time of Nebuchadnezzar had never heard of the tiny empire lording it over a strip of land along the edge of the Mediterranean.
Ah, I see what you’re saying. The stone cut without hands does refer to Jesus. Prophetically, IMO, when he comes back and establishes his kingdom here on earth. Following the fifth world empire.
And regarding world empires, the Mediterranean was considered the known civilized world at the time. Were there other civilizations in 1700 BC that greatly affected the world at large?
Surely you’re not saying that the Maccabees were a greater influence in their time than the Assyrians, Babylonians, Medes, Persians, or Romans were in theirs, are you?
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Do you know of any civilization in 1700 BC that affected the world at large? And where on earth did the year of “1700 BC” come from? If we look at the real time period in question- 600BC to 1AD- there are plenty of powerful empires. China is an obvious example. Later, the Iroquoi and the Incas controlled areas as large as, or larger than, Rome. Why didn’t Daniel talk about them?
The problem is that you’re playing worldgames. Babylon and even Rome were by no stretch of the imagination “world empires” in any real sense. They were only “world empires” by virtue of the fact that they were too ignorant to know about anything outside their limited borders. Like Socrates said, (to heavily paraphrase,) “The world is just a pond, and we’re just frogs.” The “pond” was the Mediterranean. The Babylonians didn’t even control all of that!
If someone says that there will be a succession of four empires, and you disregard the actual prophecy and turn it into “there will be four world empires before Jesus returns, but ‘world empire’ is meant in purely a provincial sense, and I get to reject or accept candidate ‘world empires’ as needed in order to get the right number” then the prophecy is useless, because you can make it mean anything you want.
In terms of Jewish history, yes. Let me put it this way:
There will be five world empires before the Second Coming of Christ! The Babylonians, the Medes, the Persians, the Romans… and the European Union!
Funny how he jumps TWO MILLENIA in that little gap there. No mention of the British Empire, or the USA. No mention of significant events in Jewish history, like the Maccabean revolt which kicked the Abomination out of the temple. (Remember that?) No mention of the Holocaust. No, because Daniel’s most important agenda is the real movers and shakers of history. Why, if he talked about the British, he might not have time left over for the Medes.
Antiochus IV was a Seleucid king (who’s referred to in the books of Maccabees, btw), who’s cruelty, religious intolerance towards the Jews, and incompetence sparked the Hasmonean revolt.
As for how Christians address the fact that Daniel doesn’t talk about the Maccabees, for those who believe that the book of Daniel was written during the reign of Antiochus IV, it’s no problem…the writer was talking about what had gone on up to Antiochus’s reign. He would have no knowledge of the Maccabees.
Other Christians would probably answer with the fact that, while the Hasmonean kingdom was important to the Jews of the time, it really wasn’t all that big or important. It was just one of a lot of little states that came out of the Seluchid disintegration. As for why the EU, the logic, I’d imagine, goes something like this:
- The last kingdom in the story is defeated by the stone, Jesus, who sets up a universal eternal kingdom.
- That hasn’t happened yet, therefore the last kingdom has to be some future kingdom.
- The antichrist will come from the European Union and he will conquer the world until Jesus defeats him (I know, it’s a big leap there, but a lot of people who think that use an interpretation of Revelation to support the idea)
- Therefore, the EU is the feet of clay.
One last note, on the “world”…remember that a lot of peole from that time period were really pariochal. Alexander wept when he started his campaign against India, because he said, if he beat them, there would be “no more worlds to conqer”…he would be master of the entire world. Now, Alexander, at his death, hadn’t conquered most of Europe, Africa, or even Asia, and hadn’t even heard of the Americas and Australia, but from his standpoint, he ruled the entire civilized world, and outside of his empire were just barbarians. Whenever you’re reading older stuff, especially ancient and medieval documents, remember you’re dealing with a much smaller world in the eyes of the writers.
Well, let’s stay grounded in reality here. It obviously can’t refer to Jesus because Jesus wasn’t going to be born for another eight hundred years.
Well, unless you, as some people do, say that the book of Daniel is a divine prophecy of future events.
Sorry Ben. I don’t know what I was thinking when I posted. I got my dates pretty confused. I’m not sure where I got 1700 bc from. I was looking at lots of maps and I guess I read one of them wrong and didn’t bother to verify what I wrote.
Many people wonder where the U.S.A. fits in Bible prophecy.
The USA is not mentioned in the Bible.
so we’re safe.
moving down the statue is traveling thru time. the belly and thighs of the statue are bronze. the human body splits into two legs in that area. what world power split into two equal parts. the roman empire split into an east and west, this incident still echoes thru history. we have the eastern orthodox church and the catholic church. the word czar comes from caeser, so does the word kaiser. we say “god bless you” when someone sneezes as a result of a roman superstition. the phrase “came out of left field” comes from the roman superstition that bad omens appeared on the left. sinister is latin for left.
the iron legs could continued east-west technological advance with competition. the feet could be the world of today. third world countries are getting some technology. it makes no sense for them to build expensive wired telephone networks like the US and Europe have when they can go straight to cellular. but they are dependent on the manufacturers in the advanced countries.
only what is the meteor that causes the statue to crash down?
Dal Timgar
first- The Maccabees in the Book of Daniel
I could see how some who see the Feet as the Seleucid Empire may see the Maccabean Kingdom as the Stone- and the prophesied world-expansion being the surviving & thriving of
the Jewish people & perhaps even the spread of Ethical Monotheism via Christianity
also, there is a definite ref in Daniel 8- 25. And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand
The Prince of princes- either God or the Jewish Priesthood (the Maccabeans were a priestly family)
broken without hand- I think Antiochus himself died of an illness, not by human attack
Also Daniel 11:
32. And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
33. And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.
34. Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
35. And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.
36. And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.
The Maccabean Revolt, the resulting Hasmonean Kingdom & its decline to the point it fell to Rome & Herod could well be seen here.