Dating Double Standard

The BBQ Pit
81

There definitely IS a double standard. I don’t think that any of the women here are saying that there isn’t one.

What we are SAYING is that it is just as miserable on both SIDES of that double standard. Hence the double part of the double standard. Not that one side is kicking back on easy street while the other has all the suffering and work to do. The suffereing IS equal, it’s the mode by which each side arrives at that suffering that’s different.

As to the “step up to the plate part”? You all have seen several of us say that we have done JUST THAT. That is, ask men out. And likely, we merely represent the many women that have in fact stepped up to the plate at least once.

The problem is, that society as a WHOLE still sends messages to both sexes that this isn’t okay. Women are still thought of as forward, unladylike or slutty (to name just a few) if they ask a man out.

And men are still thought of as wimpy if they don’t ask a woman out, clueless if they don’t get her hints (HERE I am, LOOK at MMMEEE ASke me OUUUT :D).

The double standard wasn’t invented by men OR women, and it’s not just women’s responsibility to “step up to the plate and fix things for men”. It is ALL of our jobs to turn around society’s thinking on this.

Women? Don’t put down a friend, acquaintance, or especially a family member for considering asking a man out. Encourage it.

Men? Don’t let your brothers, friends and coworkers put down women for asking men out. Don’t do the 'she must be easy, or worse DESPARATE" thing. Yes, we know, that you HERE on this board are forward thinking. So, since you already know that there are many out there in real life that don’t, you all need to “step up to the plate” when you hear some buddy making disparaging remarks about some woman asking a man out.

It’s BOTH our jobs to “fix it”. And it’s no one’s FAULT that it’s the current trend in the first place. The sooner people keep looking at it as something brought about to punish one side or the other, the better off we’ll all be.

82

I just realized I’ve asked three women in my life out on a date. And was shot down every time. I did have a girlfriend for a week once, but I wasn’t really ready for it. In high school. Yeah, I guess I was a slow developer, in the sense that I wasn’t all that interested in dating. Can you believe I had not one date in my entire college or high school career?

Well, I’m going to go get shot down by number four here in a week of so, as soon as I get my courage up to get shot down again. I like her. I’m also certain no woman has ever had an interest in me, save that one Junior (when I was a freshman in HS) who tried to ask me because she couldn’t get anyone else.

I ended that pretty quick because it clear very quickly that it was not healthy for her, she was a bit obsessive, and really needed things from friends her own age. Which I couldn’t be. It may have been creul, but I don’t think I could do anything else and not be using her.

83

I once got asked on a date by a guy. We went out for coffee. To me it was obvious that it wasn’t working - he barely spoke, didn’t appear to be listening, etc. I didn’t understand at all, because he was like this from the beginning and wouldn’t tell me much about himself.

After maybe half an hour and we left, I thanked him for the coffee and said it was nice to meet him and I would walk home (I lived nearby).

He asked me up to his apartment. I said I thought that was not a good idea. He proceeded to insist, saying he just wanted to watch some TV and have some company, etc. I was kind of an idiot and finally I agreed. Stupid, naive, but oh well.

First thing he did when he got home was run into the bathroom and then he came out and started to put the moves on me. He kissed me. I was pretty shocked. I didn’t know how to respond - I mean, he had barely said anything, and all he really much only lied to me. I probably said something along the lines of “this is way too fast for me”, and he got rather miffed and drove me home, and wouldn’t say anything. At all. Complete silent treatment.

When he let me off at my apartment, he sped away squealing his tires.

I was pretty baffled and intimidated by the whole experience. My one and only date…

84

Seems like there are a LOT of those types out there. I always hear men gripe against the “the good ones are always taken” saying. But DAMN, if you good ones are out there, where the hell ARE you then?

No, you’re not alone in this. It’s a common dating experience, especially when you’re new to the damn “game”. Later, as you get wise to the red flag clues, you can weed the bad ones out. They do still slip in under the radar occasionally though.

I’m 45, and I still don’t understand them.

Although, after listening to both men and women bitch about the other sex, I’ve come to the conclusion that it’s NOT a men/women problem, but one of jerks/non-jerks.

That is, something like 75% of the population (at least here) is made up of jerks. Unfortunately, that leaves the remaining 25% to try to find their opposite 25percenters among the whole of the opposite sex, most of whom are jerks.

I can sum it up with what I said earlier on. Dating sucks. a LOT.

85

The best date I ever had involved a conversation (while we sat on the edge of a canyon and tossed little rocks down into the abyss, too shy to really look at each other) that was a lot like the conversation in this thread.

Therefore Rule Numero Uno: discuss experiences, dating pet peeves, disappointments, and all this other stuff with your dates. Or even with your opposite-sex folks who you might consider going out with.

Seriously, can you imagine a better opportunity to get started with dealing with each other honestly as real people?

86

IMHO, the very BEST thing is when the person you end up with, starts out as a friend, and the relationship naturally goes into a dating relationship.

First and foremost, you already know each other, so there IS none of that awkward 'so what do you do? where do you live? what are your likes/dislikes" interview like crap that epitomize most first dates.

Second, and just as important, no first date asking out by either party. One day you’re having fun as best buddies as usual, next thing you know, you’re practically ripping off each others’ clothing in the front seat of his car.

What? :smiley:

Seriously though, I’m waiting for it to happen like THAT again. It’s pure magic, and none of the agony of the whole dating “game”. (and think dodgeball agony, not spin the bottle fun). Comparing dating to THAT? I’d rather wait, and NOT date.

87

Somehow, I never had too much of a problem with the mechanics of dating - I never, in fact, went on any formal “dates”, but simply let it be known that I was interested in doing various stuff with a woman - talking, going for coffee, etc; nice and casual.

Then, if I got some interest back, I pursued it further - non-verbally. There are lots of occasions to do this - looking into her eyes, giving interested body language, etc. - without being smarmy or off-putting.

Then, and only then, I would gauge her reaction. Is she interested in me in return? Is she turning towards me, or away? Is she looking at me and smiling a lot? Is she paying a lot of attention to me, or is she bored?

If she appears to be interested, then it is time to ask if she would be interested in more.

The point is to gradually build up the interest, see if it is reciprocated - and if not, to back off without hard feelings.

In this way, by the time you ask whether she wants to get physical, you already know the answer is probably “yes”. If you think the answer is likely to be “no”, don’t pursue it - have a nice time having coffee, maybe make a new friend, and pursue someone else for a physical relationship.

There is no magic to this. Some people are just not going to be interested in you, there is no use getting upset about it; just don’t waste your time, or theirs, by going after them. In particular, don’t get fixated on one person, and think that if you don’t get them to go out with you, your romantic life is over … lots of guys I know do this, and it is bad for everyone involved.

88

Wow, Grits that sounds awful. What a prick! I’m surprised you didn’t give up dating altogether after an experience like that.

Interesting. A ripple effect.

I wonder how much of our collective dating emotional baggage is the result of a small number of assholes who screw things up for everybody. If only they could somehow be removed from the dating pool altogether.

I think that’s how some (most?) men are wired. I’m certainly attracted to physical beauty (who isn’t?), but perhaps the reason I focus on personality traits is that my dating goals are relatively long-term. I’m not really a casual dater – I’ see dating mainly as a process by which I can screen potential candidates for marriage. I think I was more visually oriented when I was younger, but once I discovered the truth in the age-old cliche “beauty is only skin deep”, my priorities kinda shifted.

89

I wish more men, MANY more men would do this. It would help a LOT. It might even tip the scales more toward more men getting asked out themselves, as they’ve been saying they wanted here.

90

It doesn’t sound strange, but there are lots of guys who wouldn’t feel that way at all, even if they don’t fully realize it. Lots of guys think that, if a woman asks them out, then the woman must be more interested in him than he is in her. He might be flattered, he might be happy to accept, but he won’t feel that this woman is worth investing any time or effort in. After all, she’s already let it be known that she’s into him. There’s no thrill of the chase for them, no sense of triumph when she agrees to see him. For some men, this feeling can even extend into not bothering to treat the woman who asked him out with any real respect. These guys’ thinking is that, if she’s asked him out, she probably likes him enough to stick around for a while, even if he acts kind of lousy.

Some women who ask men out get this kind of response. It doesn’t take more than one or two experiences of this kind–which, incidentally, can be really pretty hurtful–to decide that asking men out might not be the best idea. And it’s pretty hard to suss out which men are likely to react like that and which are not. Some very progressive-seeming men have reactions like the one I’ve described.

91

This seems to also be true for way too many men once in the relationship as well. He’s all about romance and totally into her, but it seems that almost the nanosecond that she finally falls for him, he seems to take that as the upper hand, and the relationship drops to tenth or twentieth on his list of priorities and what he cares about.

Seems that “The Rules” girls, while all wet on most things, have a point where that is concerned at least with a lot of men.

92

This all plays into my pet theory about why women like arrogant guys. (I know not all women like jerks but there’s just something so appealing about a supremely confident guy.) Everyone wants to “maximize” their potential partner, in other words, find the partner with the most positive assets be it looks, humor, money, whatever. Obviously, everyone has their own “level” of attractiveness so you don’t see broke computer nerds going out with Playboy models. Everyone also has their own “range” that they’d be willing to date.

For instance, maybe I’d be willing to date someone who’s 25% less attractive than me although my upper boundary is, in theory, infinite. But, for the “best” partner I could get, I would probably be approaching that person’s lower limit and they won’t be enitrely happy, believing (possibly subconciously) they could do better. So having an arrogant partner who treats me badly is actually an indication that I’ve “maximized” my dating potential. If a guy is too nice, it’s obvious that I’m rank highly on his desirable range and I have probably settled. This also explains why keeping a guy at arm’s length may be a more effective strategy than openly admitting your affection for him.

Yeah, it’s a silly theory and I’ve ignored tons of factors (plus, it makes it obvious I don’t have a ton o’ dating experience) but it does seem to explain a lot.

93

The problem here is that many women categorize men pretty quickly as “friends” and thus negate the possibility of going out with them since they don’t want to “ruin the friendship”.

The problem is, by the time you are comfortable asking her out more formally many women will have categorized you and thus written you off. Some men do this too, but far far fewer.

Although I think this could tip the scale toward more men getting asked out, I don’t see it resulting in more rather than fewer dates total. But it would certainly result in higher-quality dates.

94

:slight_smile:

In my experience, 90% of the problem men have is excessive fear of rejection.

To my mind, this problem can be minimized by simply allowing a relationship to develop, using body language, and being willing to accept the cues that women are giving you - that is, only pursuing a woman whom you strongly suspect is interested in you, and then allowing your (mutual) attraction to build and reinforce each other.

The process doesn’t have to be painful or humiliating.

Personally, I think men on average have an easier time than women. Women, again on average, seem to be more willing to look at a man in his entirety - whereas a lot of men only pursue women based on physical attractiveness.

Plus, women are often so relieved to find a man who appears to be reasonable about relationships, and who is interested in them, that they are willing to overlook any number of flaws.

I’ve now been married for a decade, but when I was single, I benefited from this a lot - I’m not the best looking guy out there (by a long shot! :wink: ), I’m somewhat overweight, but I never had any real trouble finding female companionship.

(Of course, I haven’t tried for a decade, so maybe I will now …)

I know this attitude exists, but I’ve never understood it.

I pursue a physical relationship because skin-on-skin contact feels really nice. :smiley: Triumph? Thrill of the chase? Not important to me at all.

95

[QUOTE=MalthusI pursue a physical relationship because skin-on-skin contact feels really nice. :smiley: Triumph? Thrill of the chase? Not important to me at all.[/QUOTE]

So, where the hell ARE your type of man??? Other than those we see posting on these boards., and in this thread, that is.

96

CanvasShoes, I think you read more into my post than I intended. I certainly wasn’t trying to say that women have it easy when it comes to initiating a date. In the grand scheme of relationships, I don’t have an insightful answer to this; I’m still trying to understand and clarify the question.

Is that really still true, after decades of Cosmopolitan covers and six seasons of Sex and the City? (Unless the boundary-pushing naughtiness sends the message that good girls don’t do those kinds of things.) I’ve never heard a guy criticize a woman for taking some initiative and asking him out.

If you really say that society discourages women from doing this, I’ll take your word for it. But it would help if you could try to explain it a bit or give some examples.

What’s wrong with the guys on this board, then?

And on a bit more serious note, you can dismiss anyone by saying “well, apart from them.” If you skip over the ones you already know about, then there isn’t really an answer to your question.

Now, where are all the interesting women?

97

RobotArm you’ve really never heard a guy criticize a woman for taking the initiative? I don’t disbelieve you, I’m just surprised. I hear it all the time. Maybe guys just say different things to each other than they say to women.

This guy was on some talk show that was on while I was getting my hair cut a while back. Seems he’s got a whole book on it. It may be pure bunk intended to make money, but a lot of women seemed to really buy into it.

Personally, I think it’s fine for a woman to ask a guy out. But a lot of women are still getting the message: DON’T DO IT!

98

People hawking books don’t count.

99

To be fair, that’s not just a guy thing.

100

Well, in my case, married. :slight_smile:

I have lots of friends my age (late 30s), both male and female, and one trend I see - which again favours men over women (unfortunately, in my opinion) is that men appear to have a wider choice of age-related opportunities; thus, while most people I know married or formed more or less permanent relationships when in their 20s, if their relationship busts up for some reason, men are more likely to find a new partner - they can, it seems, go for women either older or younger than themselves; whereas it is, it appears, more difficult for women my age, comming out of a first relationship, to go for younger men - they tend to be restricted to men roughly their own age, or older.

So you guys out there, you should not complain: the deck is stacked in our favour, really. All you gotta do is know how to play your cards - meaning, with sensitivity (by which I mean paying attention to the cues women are giving you), and above all, with good humour! :slight_smile:

These are the big mistakes I see other men making (to be fair, women make them too - and I did as well, when young):

  1. They get wound up over a woman who isn’t interested in them, pester her, get rejected, and either get depressed about it or blame women for making them miserable;

  2. They confuse infatuation with love (the first lasts at most a few months, and can be the product of a glance - the latter lasts a lifetime, and is the product of shared experience);

  3. They fear rejection so much that they refuse to expose if they find a woman attractive or not - and then get pissed when she does not read his mind;

  4. They attempt to mope and guilt women into paying attention to them, rather than being fun and interesting - even though they are fun and interesting around their male friends;

  5. They don’t actually listen to what women are saying, either verbally or with their body language;

  6. They make friends with a woman, and then get pissed when she would rather not take the relationship physical - leading to the conclusion that their friendship was a fake in the first place;

  7. They take the fact that a woman doesn’t want a physical relationship with them as a wounding personal rejection, rather than simply a preferance.

The attitude I always tried to cultivate was “we are all in this together, so let’s have some fun”. If someone I liked the look of wasn’t ready to have fun with me, no problem - move on to the next, with no hard feelings; if having fun with a woman leads to sex, all the better; if it leads to platonic friendship, I’ve got a new friend, and you can never make enough friends! :slight_smile: