If you over-react with confused bewilderment, then you will be acting in an equally sarcastic way.
The tone you’re looking for is neutral, slightly confused, and enquiring.
It’s really hard to convey it in words, but the right tone will send the message that you aren’t really that bothered about what he has said, but what he has said doesn’t really make sense to you and you’re letting him know that. It’s a tone of, ‘What you’re saying doesn’t make sense, so I’m asking you to clarify. I’m not really that interested in what answer you give me, but I’m happy enough to listen if you want to explain yourself.’
So you’re not saying, ‘Oh my god, why are you saying that?!? WhatEVER!’
You’re saying, ‘Meh, that doesn’t really make sense. Explain yourself.’
There is a passive-aggressive in this scenario though, it’s John. What kind of friend sits around watching you be abused/tormented and does nothing about it? Why is he continuing to subject you to it? Is it possible he’s not such a good friend? Just a thought. It seems to me that part of your conversation needs to be a question about his passivity in all this.
And seriously, read the book. The statement about enjoying riling you up confirms it - he’s a Verbal Abuser.
as_u_wish, your approach could actually also be worth a shot. What I like about yours is that it gives me a chance to basically say to him “Hey, I noticed what you just did there, and not only am I pointing it out to you, but also to everybody else that’s present”.
While I do feel as though I cop it more than most - which in my opinion, is because Tim feels threatened by the closeness of my friendship with John - the reality is that Tim is like this with most people, and definitely does it to others when I am present. He’s just so “good” at making it all look like an innocent joke, that I’ve never actually seen anyone confront him the instant he does this. Some of the time, I haven’t even realised what he’s done until I start to wonder why I am feeling irritated all of a sudden. He’s very, very slippery.
This is spot on in my opinion. Back when I went through my “let’s learn about pick up artists!” phase, I learned about AMOG destroyers. See the goal of the AMOG destroyer is to displace the social status of the alpha male of the group. Standard tactics include using harassment disguised as joking to lower the AMOG’s social value either driving him away or turning him into a beta male letting the AMOG destroyer become the alpha.
The fella the OP is dealing with sounds a lot like an AMOG destroyer. Yes it’s petty games, I hate it as well.
Have you noticed other people reacting to it at all? Just to play devil’s advocate here, is it possible that you are overreacting to it, because of the Tim situation?
Don’t play games (like the slightly puzzled/questionning game)
Be upfront. Ask him if he is being sarcastic. If he says yes…basically tell him to fuck off (how diplomatically is up to you). If he says no, apologise and go on with your conversation. If he tries some middle ground (more sarcasm) PIN HIM DOWN with this conversation until he responds yes or no. If he doesn’t, then raise your arms in frustration and exclaim how weird this is…either he was being sarcastic or not. This works best when you first meet someone and they are sarcastic to you…not sure how effective it would be in a longer relationship where he’s been walking all over you for some time. However, when they first meet you and do this and you stand up for yourself in the above way…they will know you aren’t to be screwed with.
The OP’s friend’s friend is not being passive aggressive…he is being AGGRESSIVE!
Give him no reaction to a couple of good zingers. Just ignore it like you didn’t hear him, no eye contact. This should embolden him.
When the third zinger gets launched, let it hang for a while and then, turning directly toward him looking him straight in the eye, and with calm and even tones, and a smile on your face;
“It’s remarkably disingenuous of you to pretend you are unaware of the hurtful, belittling, additional meanings of the things you say. It’s disingenuous because, we all know, you’re not really trying to be funny, and we all know that you know as much. You seem so intelligent and bright to me. How can you not see that thinking people hear this and assume that you are either incredibly insecure or not very bright. Personally, I’m baffled why anyone gifted with your intellect and wit wastes them spewing such obvious and clumsy passive aggressive tripe. You do it all the time, to lots of people. Yet seem unaware or unconcerned about what is says about you, to others.”
Shrug your shoulders and say, “I guess it takes all kinds to make a world.”
Do not engage in debate, move on, refuse to return to the topic. Just let it percolate for a while, maybe he’ll realize.
The other people there are probably wondering the same things you are - “Was that a put-down? What is the matter with this guy?” and just biting their tongues so they don’t cause a scene at a social gathering. I would say it is part of what lets the Tims of the world get away with their behaviour - no one wants to be as big an asshole as they are in public.
I don’t think your idea of avoiding Tim is a bad one; you can shout down an asshole like him, but end up with two loud assholes at the party instead of one. I also wouldn’t bring the rest of the crowd into it; all you can reliably talk about is YOUR feelings or responses; you don’t know how anyone else is responding to him, and it would completely undermine you if you said something like, “No one here likes you, you know.” and other people start standing up for him. Assertiveness is not allowing your toes to be stepped on, not stepping on other people’s toes. You are perfectly within your rights to tell Tim to get off your toes (or just not bring your toes around him). If you start stepping on his toes, you have crossed the line into aggressive yourself.
Can you feel some compassion for Tim, knowing that there is something wrong with him that makes him thrive on negativity instead of just enjoying a social gathering?
My girlfriend came to me (unprompted) and mentioned that she felt she has to be careful of everything she says and does around Tim, because Tim is just waiting for her to say or do something that he can make fun of.
Similarly, issues with Tim’s “overbearingness” have been discussed some time ago amongst other members of the group. Additionally, on the weekend when we were all together, Tim said something to me and then his girlfriend said to me (in front of everyone, but in a fairly non-confrontational kind of way) “Poor KellyCriterion. You always seem to get picked on”. I felt like saying “Err, not really, only when Tim’s here”. So, that’s as much objectivity as I can offer.
Also, there’s a culture amongst our friendship group that we don’t really “bitch” about each other. So, it would be fairly significant if someone raised such a direct issue like this. What I’m trying to say is, just because no one has brought it up in recent times, doesn’t in and of itself mean people aren’t being affected by him.
If John is such a good friend, I don’t see why you should be shy about telling him you think this Tim guy is a douchebag. I don’t see why you would be shy about telling TIM he’s a douchebag, for that matter. What is happening with guys these days. In my day if someone in the ring acted like that, we’d just say “fuck you,” and w’d have no reservations about asking John, “why do you hang around with that dickwad?” If you’re afraid to be upfront with this John dude, how tight can you guys really be? Man up a little bit, dude.
I do feel some compassion for him, yes. Prior to posting my OP, I was trying to think of as many different ways of approaching this as I could. One such scenario I came up with (as a response to scenario 2 from my OP):
Me: “Tim, you really seem to enjoy trying to make other people look stupid, don’t you? See, if that was me sitting over there, and you were here, I would have said something like 'Hey, Tim! You don’t have to stand over there mate, come and join us on the couch. Hey guys, let’s all move over so there’s room for Tim”. But instead, you choose to spin it in such a way that makes me look like an idiot for just standing here quietly while I eat. Why do you feel this constant need to make other people look silly? <cue the counter-passive-aggressive strike> You come across as someone with some very deep insecurities. Are you threatened by me in some way? Are you worried that we all think you’re an idiot or something? Do you think we sit around when you’re not here all saying to each other ‘Hey that Tim sure is a dummy, isn’t he? You know he never finished university, right? And you know that up until this year, he’d only ever worked in menial jobs? Haha, what an idiot!’. Because that’s not at all what we think. We like you, and we do think you are intelligent. You really don’t have to prove anything to us, Tim. Maybe this is just a manifestation of issues you have with your other friendship groups, but around us, you don’t have to prove anything".
You just let him harrass your girlfriend without saying anything? You have really got to grow a pair. There’s no way in hell I would let somebody do that to my wife. You’ve got to let go of this notion that you’d be doing something rude. You’d be RESPONDING to rudeness, and I guarantee everybody would not only understand that, but they’ve probably been waiting to see somebody call this guy on his crap forever.
Being friends with “John,” does not mean you have to tolerate his other buddies bagging on you, and especially not on your girlfriend. If John can’t understand that, then he’s a dickhole too.
If someone approached you, and said about your best friend, “Man, that friend of yours is a dickwad!”. You wouldn’t feel the slightest impulse to get defensive? You wouldn’t have appreciated a little more tact and respect?
Calm down. My partner didn’t approach me until after Tim had gone home, and my first response was, “Would you like me to confront Tim about it?”. Perhaps in your relationship you would race off and confront the person without respecting what your wife wants, but that’s not how things work in my relationship. It is actually because my partner brought this up with me that I am finally prompted to get a little more pro-active about solving this, ok?
I am trying to determine the best way to handle this situation. Given the closeness of the mutual friend, I am making sure I do it properly.
If my best friend was a dickwad, I’d already know it. No, I wouldn’t get defensive. I might ask the person what they don’t like about him, but it wouldn’t hurt my feelings. For one thing, I’d probably already be aware of the offending traits or behaviours, and for another, it’s not like they’d be talking about my wife or my mom. What do I care if somebody doesn’t like one of my friends?
I actually have had similar issues with friends who didn’t like each other, and I usually would just try to explain what redeeming qualities I saw in the dude rather than crying about it or getting offended – “Yeah, I know he can be an ass when he’s drunk, but he’s helped me out of some jams and been a good friend in other ways.” That kind of thing.
You may not be aware if your friend is a “dickwad” if you are not on the receiving end of his aggressive behaviour. Regardless, you appear to be contradicting yourself. Let’s say one of your best friends comes to you and says “Hey, Diogenes. Your wife is a dickwad!”. You’d respond by… ?
Yep. As one who mistakenly threw away a rumpled Safeway receipt found on the floor that had some earth-shakingly critical information on it, all mystery trash now goes in Mrs Gargoyle’s “for sorting later” basket. There are far fewer conflicts when I can just say “When we cleaned house for your parents, I didn’t throw anything away, I put everything in your basket. Have you checked there?” Of course if she could just organize her stuff in the first place so we didn’t need this silly bandaid process…but that’s a sleep on the couch for another day
Why didn’t you say that or something else at the time? I mean, that was a great opportunity for you to turn it around, e.g. ‘Actually, Tim is the only person that picks on me. I’m not sure why that is?’
What is your current response when he does these things?
Tim is a bully. The culture of your group as you describe it really sounds like it’s letting him have the time of his life.
You either have to break the mold and deal with Tim directly in conversation – which will be an ongoing thing – or tell your mutual friend that you’ll be seeing him alone in future.
