I’ll use small words. If our love problems are really because boys and girls are dramatically different, then gay men (or lesbians) should not have the same problems- since the whole venus/mars problem shouldn’t exist. Either they should have great relationships with no problems with expectations, or they should have some other totally weird problems that we haven’t accounted for. However, evidence shows that gay people live love lives much ours. HUMANs have a hard time forming close relationships, not men and women.
My claim is that any “hard wired” tendencies are going to be so removed from nature and expressed in such weird ways in our pretty wholly artificial culture that how they affect our real life is difficult to figure out.
I just don’t believe in this biological determinism BS. Cecil once said that the cuteness of the story of a word’s origin has an inverse relationship to its likelihood of being true. But all biological determinism has is ‘cuteness’ and frankly I’m not buying it. Sure, we can look at our society and say that women are prudes and come up with some likely sounding story for why that benefited cave-women. But if women were not prudes in our society we’d be looking for some likely reason why being slutty benefited cave-girls. And either way the only evidence we have is how clever the story is. Of course it’s easy to come up with great explanations when we already know the answers we want.
It’s not too hard to find places where they don’t wear clothing. Human culture takes on huge and amazing varieties- you can find almost anything as a cultural norm somewhere. I somehow doubt the modern US dating relationships is somehow so clearly and obviously related to our true human nature and someplace that practices different dating behavior (say, medieval Japan) is not.
So why do some cultures see women as the sexual aggressors? Why are women the head of household in other cultures? Why do some cultures consider the father to be an essential part of the family and others all but kick them out? Why are women’s clits cut off in other cultures? Do you think our culture is somehow a better reflection of human nature, or that these other cultures are just freaks, or what?
Yeah, and there’s a book about how there is a secret code in the Bible that foretells Moby Dick. *Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus was a big hit because it told people that their relationship problems weren’t their fault, and that they had a right to act however they feel like as long as they can claim thats also what cave-men liked. It’s on the same plane as The Rules or He’s Just Not That In To You, which is to say that it has a catchy name that makes for good Oprah segments, gives people yet another set of feel-good things they can tell themselves until they get bored of it, and provides a nice easy explanation for infinitely complex problems. If it’s made your life better, more power to you. But it aint science.
Fuck, I said “Japan”! Can we change that to “Medieval Meso-America” before we all get a lecture on how dating practices in Medieval Japan are the missing link between modern america and cavemen?
Well, while the OP may have been taking poetic license, I have read letters in advice columns very similar to that. The gist of it is that man wanting to look at sexy women once married is wrong. Obviously, that desire is supposed to turn off once we’re married, according to questioner and advice columnist.
Yeah, basically joking, but there is also the base reality, like it or not that, “Why doesn’t he love me for who I am,” must in part be answered with, “Part of who you are to him is how you look.”
It’s a whole different ball of wax and probably didn’t belong as one of the points. But the woman in the column did volunteer that information about her looks, so I included that content.
Please tell me whether the real response from the advice column included the word “abuse.” That would RULE.
Otherwise, yeah, those letters are crazy, but so are your contentions that counseling doesn’t work, monogamy is a canard, and that he’s only masturbating because she’s too fat.
These conversations are amusing to me. ‘Man’ and ‘woman’ are no more real than ‘Tuesday’ or ‘up’. They’re useful shorthand for a complex set of conditions. ‘Men do this, women do that’ – sometimes I wonder if we’re on the same planet.* People do stuff*, that’s all. Some like porn and others don’t; some object to their partner(s) using it, and others think the more the merrier.
Sure, people’s reactions will probably have something to do with their social gender designation, their chemical and genetic makeup, their upbringing, and so on. But there are so many such factors behind what makes up an individual’s reaction, it’s pretty much impossible to sum them up in a tidy way. Gender or sex designations definitely don’t do the trick. Statistics can show trends, but the human race is made up largely of outliers at this point. When taken as individuals, people are infinitely variable.
True, sometimes it’s hard for them to express that with everyone walking around enforcing The Rules on everyone else (or themselves) all the time. But that’s kind of my point; you can’t really rely on what people report to be accurate, because they’ll lie if they think the answer might incriminate them. Also because even if they’re being honest, the reasons for their answer might be completely different from the reasons someone else has for giving the same answer. They might both be men, and that may even have some kind of significance, but that doesn’t make mannitude (mannitocity, if you will) the reason.
Actually, I think there is a measure of truth in that statement.
From my experience, men are more ‘hardwired’ to be visual.
I cringe every time a woman says, 'But if he loves me, he shouldn’t care about the fact that I’ve gained 50 pounds and now spend most of my time wearing baggy sweatshirts and sweat pants.".
I always want to reply, “It has nothing to do with him loving you, and everything to do with the fact that you are no longer visually erotic to him.”
I remember reading a complaint posted by a man on another message board.
He was lamenting the fact that, after six years of marriage, his wife had gained 75 pounds and wore a tatty nighty to bed each night.
He wanted to stay faithful but he was no longer attracted to he woman the married.
I refuse to condemn him for his lack of desire-after all, she isn’t really the same woman physically that he married and he may not have be attracted to her initially if she looked and behaved like that when they first met.
And quite frankly, I’m not sure that if my husband gained an enormous amount of weight and schlepped around the house unshaven and unshowered, I would want to have sex with him either.
With that said, I don’t believe men are predisposed by nature to "…spread their see(d) far and wide. "
I think that most men prefer the benefits, if you like, of sex with a woman that they know intimately, have an emotional attachment to, and that they know how to please and are comfortable sharing their sexual fantasies and desires with no fear of disapproval.
However, they also need to be able to lust after that woman and part of that lust is based in her appearance.
The only problem I have with porn is that so much of it is boring. The crap I was looking at the other day were like pictures of a woman with a dick in her mouth, eyes on the camera, just posing. It didn’t look they they were actually doing anything. Or then there’s the pron with women in positions that you know aren’t getting her anywhere. And she’s making the “oh baby” face and it just ain’t happening. Either that or the people in the porn are just rough looking. I can’t get into that.
If there’s some hot porn out there where both people are getting into in a sincere (non-faking it) kind of way, I’d love to see it.
Both genders can rise above their own respective hardwired greediness in choosing their mates. I’m sorry you feel that way, but you made your own choice to believe that we should serve our own hardwired desires rather than to aspire to a higher ideal such as love. As long as you persist in your belief, you will get nothing but selfish golddiggers; of course, that will serve to further cement your own perception of women as golddiggers.
I think the OP does a grave disservice to his argument and to men’s quest to consume pornography without condemnation by introducing the fallacy that a partner’s attractiveness has anything to do with the consumption of pornography. As Merijeek alludes to, it doesn’t matter how attractive a partner is.
I formulated a hypothesis years ago that men are driven to mentally catalog the appearance of all vaginas. Essentially, Playboy shows the same thing month after month, but has remained in business for what, 50 years? We just want to see different people in different scenarios, and novelty is a huge factor. Porn consumption really has nothing to do with how a partner looks or whether her appearance has changed over time, and such a belief will ultimately be harmful to the spouse’s self-regard, the husband’s free pursuit of porn, and the husband’s ability to decline participation in efforts to change himself, via therapy or otherwise.
I always wonder whether women making this argument are consumers of romance novels. Were I to find any sort of media threatening to a relationship, I would be far more worried about these than porn. They reify “romantic” schema in ways that would make men look much less desirable than simple modifications of sexual attractiveness (although, from what I’ve come to understand from my wife’s reading of these books, most of the men have enormous throbbing manhoods (or is it menhood?)). Yet, one hardly ever hears of men complaining that women are “addicted” to romance novels, or turn to romance novels instead of their husband, or are morally deficient for their use of romance novels.
We need to support the right of all people to engage in the consumption of pornography without appealing to attacks on the appearance of others.
Speaking as a writer who was pretty much picked out as a potential romance novel writer on the basis of my output (which I though was porn), there are quite a few romance novels that are indistinguishable from softcore porn. So, point well made.
No, I want porn, with people doing the deed. I just want it to be real rather than completely set up. Essentially, I want HER to have a great big one. I’m not terribly interested in his.
I’m sorry but I have to disagree.
Men may indeed be ‘hardwired’ to want a measure of novelty but I do think that their spouse’s appearance plays as role as well.
I’m not talking about surfing the web peridically to look at porn or flipping through a Playboy every once in a while.
I’m specifically referring to men that prefer porn and maturbation to actually having sex with their SO’s.
Everything I’ve ever read written by a man that has lost sexual interest in his partner on a message board will mention that she has gained a large amount of weight and/or otherwise has stopped making an effort to appear attractive.
And for the record-I think romance novels are badly written, badly plotted bits of pure tripe.
I think this is very true (that most porn is just poorly done), but what alternatives are there? Despite it being, as I understand it, an X billion dollar industry, apparently the stigma keeps people or companies of real quality from being involved. There are a few folks who put out some stuff with some thought behind it or effort put into the production of it, but not many. I much prefer some sort of story, some good acting, some decent lighting and music, some creativity behind the editing, and so forth, but I still want to see the explicit sex. If quality work isn’t available, though, I’ll take what is.
Another interesting phenomenon is the use of explicit sex in mainstream films. I say this is interesting because it seems that filmmakers somehow feel the need to offset having explicit sex by making the rest of the film very depressing, sad, unpleasant or just boring. People can’t have sex without it being a real bummer, apparently. I’m thinking of 9 Songs, Romance, Intimacy, Brown Bunny, Baise Moi. Why not have a When Harry Met Sally with some good fucking?
What I don’t understand are the videos made which cut out the explicit stuff, but use the rest of the shots. Often they loop the same shot over and over to fill where they cut out explicit material, so you end up with extra, repeated footage of some porn actor’s rediculous expressions and clever dialogue (“Oh shit! Oh yeah! Oh fuck!”). So, all the bad quality with none of the explicit sex - a real winner.
The other thing I hate about all the porn I seem to find online is that most of it seems to have the goal of degrading someone. “Watch Miss Slut take ten guys worth of cum in her face!!!” “Watch her bend over and take three at once!!!”
Yeah, that’s really sexy. Barf. I just want to see some good old fashioned fucking.
When taken as individuals, people are infinitely variable.
