Dear Miss Ogynist...Miss Andryst...Miss Anthrope...Miss thang... ahem. Dear catsix,

The BBQ Pit
181

[QUOTE=CarnalK]
No you are the first. Maureen and DianeG just made shit up, basically.
[/quote]

No, dear, I didn’t. I just recognized that whatever I came up with, this:

Would be your response. catsix’s posting history is full of insulting obnoxious nastiness toward pregnant women, parents of small children, and the attitude in general that common courtesy is taken by her as a personal insult. I could pull up several. I just recognize the fact that whatever it is I pull up, you’ll dismiss out of hand. Just as you have with other cites by other posters. Why demand proof if you’re not going to give it any merit? Oh, that’s right. Because you’re a prick.

182

Young women have offered me their seats on the subway. It is absolutely unlikely that the reason was anything other than a feeling that I was old, and therefore feeble. I am old, but not altogether feeble. I was not insulted. I didn’t take the seat, but it was not because I was insulted. And my response was to laugh, and say, “Why thank you very much, young lady, but I am just fine.”

I missed an opportunity to regale her with vitriol over her geriaticism, and insulting attitude. The opportunity was well ignored. Pleasant behavior is not weak. If you want men to believe that women are their equals, start acting like an equal. Equals are not bound to defend their sex at every turn, nor accept guilt by association because of sexual identity. Some men are jerks. I feel no loyalty to them, or responsibility for them. Some women are jerks as well. I choose to believe the common factor is being a jerk, not being a woman.

When you assume I am your enemy, you invite me to become your enemy. I will decline to do so, but that is an aspect of my own philosophy, not a change in my attitude effected by your actions. Your campaign to verbally thrash good manners out of the common man will benefit no one, yourself least of all. I assure you, without a thorough explanation far longer than the average casual encounter will support, most of the people you have this interaction are not going to attribute your behavior to philosophy. The will just assume you are a rude, and unpleasant person and think ill of your upbringing. From their point of view, it will be true.

Tell me, can you think of any time, or any set of participants for whom offering a seat, or holding a door for an unknown stranger is not an insult? Are the kind inherently false, and condescending? Is it sexism you abhor, or simply kindness?

Tris

183

[QUOTE=Mishell]
Please. I am so sick and tired of this whole southern pride, we’re polite, the northerners are rude thing. I’m a “yankee” :rolleyes: and I, and pretty much everybody I know, have impeccable manners. In my experience from having spent a lot of time in Missouri, Arkansas, and Tennessee (visiting mom’s side of the family), the ratio of polite people to fucking jerks is pretty much equal.
[/QUOTE]

Yes, I agree. I have traveled to the South, Midwest, SouthWest and West. In all cases, there have been rude jerks and polite people, and it doesn’t seem to have varied much by region.

184

[QUOTE=catsix]

I have a problem with the attitude of those like Cemetery Savior who offer up a seat to any woman even if she just won a triathlon the same way that they would to a person (male) who has physical limitations or age-related infirmities.

[/QUOTE]

Okay, I didn’t read the rest of the thread and had no intention of coming in on this because I rarely even peek at the pits aimed at individual board members. But I have a fucking problem with this.

My boyfriend is the kind of guy who will offer his chair to a woman, pregnant or otherwise, if there are no available seats. He’s not a misogynist or whatever the fuck it’s spelled. He was raised by a feminist mother and was taught to practically worship the ground women walk on. He stands up because I believes that the woman, pregnant or otherwise, has more of a right to that seat than he does. He doesn’t bow down when he does it, he doesn’t act condescending when he does it. He’s beaten the crap out of someone and gone to jail because they dared raise a hand to their wife. He doesn’t do it because he thinks less of women, or even because he thinks they need a leg up. He does it because he is respectful of women, believing they are due all of the courtesies of normal society.

So if my boyfriend offers you a seat on the bus and you snap at him, his overly-masculine girlfriend might end up punching you in the gut. But since you want to be treated like any able-bodied man would be, you’d be expecting to get hit for being rude - at least, I’m assuming.

I apologize that this comes off as offensive, but that really irked me - I’d offer my seat to a pregnant woman because being pregnant is uncomfortable, and if I could make someone’s life a little easier, well, dammit, it’s my job as a human being to do that. And someone taking offense at that pisses me off.

~Tasha

185

[QUOTE=CanvasShoes]
I didn’t say I’m not YOUR buddy, I said I’m not A buddy. I’m a woman.
[/QUOTE]

Oh, in that case, quit oppressing yourself. Women can be buddies. :stuck_out_tongue:

186

[QUOTE=Triskadecamus]
Young women have offered me their seats on the subway. It is absolutely unlikely that the reason was anything other than a feeling that I was old, and therefore feeble. I am old, but not altogether feeble. I was not insulted. I didn’t take the seat, but it was not because I was insulted. And my response was to laugh, and say, “Why thank you very much, young lady, but I am just fine.”

I missed an opportunity to regale her with vitriol over her geriaticism, and insulting attitude. The opportunity was well ignored. Pleasant behavior is not weak. If you want men to believe that women are their equals, start acting like an equal. Equals are not bound to defend their sex at every turn, nor accept guilt by association because of sexual identity. Some men are jerks. I feel no loyalty to them, or responsibility for them. Some women are jerks as well. I choose to believe the common factor is being a jerk, not being a woman.
[/QUOTE]

Well said.
I don’t mind it if a man doesn’t stand when I enter a room or hold a door for me or take his hat off in an elevator because I walked in (ok, I SO just dated myself there), but I’m always flattered and pleased when they do. I like it. I guess I’m old fashioned because I don’t see anything wrong with total strangers being nice to each other.

I don’t think it’s true that a lack of those things happening shows a breakdown in gender barriers, I believe it’s a breakdown in manners. There’s nothing that says a woman can’t hold a door or elevator for a man (and I do, if there happens to be someone right behind me) or another woman. And I think we should. I’m certainly teaching my children those little niceties that automatically bring to (my) mind the word “lady” or “gentleman.”

187

[QUOTE=Cervaise]
Lincoln McPieflag?
[/QUOTE]

Ha! Phenomenal! I give that one five stars. :slight_smile:

[QUOTE=Sarahfeena]
Just make mine non-alcoholic, as it’s not a great plan to be boozing it up in the first trimester! :slight_smile:

[/QUOTE]

I don’t know if you posted this anywhere else where congratulations might be more in keeping with the thread, but congrats!

[QUOTE=Beaucarnea]
Nope. So long as you feel the same way about an overly helpful teenage girl. Or a woman in her mid-twenties whose hands are free when you are carrying packages. Or a girl scout. Or a boy scout. I see no reason to limit your snarling disdain to gentlemen of a certain age.

[/QUOTE]

I’d agree with this, except the issue is specifically the assumed insult that cross-gender deference causes. I’m not saying I agree that it is an insult, but just that it seems the issue is specifically gender based. When men behave a certain way it is insulting because of the percieved connotations of those actions as performed by men.

[QUOTE=Ghanima]
Here I go again, I know I’m going to regret this, but oh well, it’s not like any of you know where I live…

I think it’s important to preserve the idea of behaving differently (i.e. “respectfully”) toward women. I think that this is a way of society protecting both men and women (and young women in particular), and despite what catsix and others say I believe that the young women in our society do need protection. (No, I’m not saying that every man is secretly a rapist or anything, but I do think that young women in particular are a very targeted group in society for harassment and exploitation. They are unmistakably sexual beings whether they are aware of it or not and this attracts attention, often unwanted attention.)
The societal standard of having men act extraordinarily “respectful” of women and young women in particular creates a perceived boundary or distance that protects both young women and men. By providing boundaries, “manners” help create an environment where we feel and where we are safer. The true societal purpose behind a man holding a door open for a woman is not to save the woman from doing the labor of opening the door herself. It is to indicate that the man is showing undue respect for women, thereby signalling that one is operating within the type of society that one is familiar with, to prevent forcing a woman to ask for help if she needs it, which puts her automatically in a vulnerable position, and to distinguish him from the sort of man who has no respect for women and is therefore to be avoided. It is a play of signals that put both people at ease. It has nothing to do with the strength of one’s biceps.

I hope I’m getting my thought across. One only has signals and body language to work with when one is interacting with strangers. This type of behavior is useful. To abolish it would mean that you are ridding your society of the types of signals that allow you to judge what kind of situations or persons you are dealing with. This seems infinitely more inconsiderate and dangerous to me.
[/QUOTE]

This is a great post. I actually wanted to say something sort of similar. I’d say another ‘true societal purpose’ of holding the door is for a man to demonstrate his politeness and concern for women, thus indicating in part that he’d be a good potential partner. Not necessarially for the woman for whom he is holding the door, but whomever. “Ah! There is a man who is helpful and kind towards women, who tries to make their lives easier. What a good husband he would make!”

[QUOTE=Beaucarnea]
And in the United States we have certain cultural habits. We offer (offer; not insist) to offer a seat or open a door for a lady, for our elders, for the infirm, or for the visibly exhausted or uncomfortable (I am including pregnant here) because it is a kind and polite thing to do. Doesn’t matter whether the other person is wearing a skirt or pants.
[/QUOTE]

I’m with you in thinking that this is not such a horrible thing, but I think you’re a bit blind to the gender roles being played out in this scenario. You say it doesn’t matter whether the other person is wearing a skirt or pants, and yet we open doors for people of various criteria, and all women. Why not all men as well? Wouldn’t it be polite and kind for anyone to hold the door for anyone else? Why isn’t that the case?

[QUOTE=catsix]

I’m not one of those people who say ‘let’s keep the differences so long as they benefit me.’
[/QUOTE]

I don’t think that holding the door for women necessarially benefits women more than it does men (see Ghanima’s post). Holding a door for a woman gives a man a sense of worth, a sense of ‘doing a good deed,’ and communicates that he is concerned with the well-being of others. It lets people know in a small way that he is aware of them, and that he can be counted on to make things easier for those around him. None of this is insignificant. Holding the door, while often totally unnecessary from the, er, holdee’s point of view, achieves many things for the holder.

188

I think that is a little too general. You are describing strange men being nice to strange women. *Quelle suprise * that you like it. lol.

189

Well, sure. Who doesn’t like it when someone does something nice for you? I mean, apart from catsix.
I paid the bridge toll for the woman behind me today. No reason, I was just in a really good mood and I felt like brightening someone’s day. I hope she didn’t get all pissed off and think I was a weirdo, but I’ll probably never know.

190

[QUOTE=Eonwe]

I don’t think that holding the door for women necessarially benefits women more than it does men (see Ghanima’s post). Holding a door for a woman gives a man a sense of worth, a sense of ‘doing a good deed,’ and communicates that he is concerned with the well-being of others. It lets people know in a small way that he is aware of them, and that he can be counted on to make things easier for those around him. None of this is insignificant. Holding the door, while often totally unnecessary from the, er, holdee’s point of view, achieves many things for the holder.
[/QUOTE]

Most people in this thread have said that they operate under the “first person to the door holds it” rule. I see guys hold the door for my husband, and he holds the door for other guys. It’s such a simple pleasantry that has been shat upon by people who feel it’s demeaning. I can’t believe it could be construed as anything else by any normal member of society.

191

[QUOTE=Kalhoun]
Most people in this thread have said that they operate under the “first person to the door holds it” rule. I see guys hold the door for my husband, and he holds the door for other guys. It’s such a simple pleasantry that has been shat upon by people who feel it’s demeaning. I can’t believe it could be construed as anything else by any normal member of society.
[/QUOTE]

At this point, I’m ready to just say, fuck 'em. If they are that annoyed at a simple gesture, THEY are the ones with a problem, not me.

192

I’m seriously hoping that some of you aren’t so socially retarded that you have an anxiety attack while trying to decide whether you should hold a door open or not.

Honestly, I didn’t realize my holding a door for someone, or giving up my seat to someone, could be seen as condescending. I think i’ll just keep my seat from now on, and let the door slam in your face! :dubious:

193

I always appreciate someone’s effort to be kind. I don’t understand anyone’s outrage at someone else making a genuine effort to be nice.

Example, if an old Caucasian lady calls me “colored” instead of the politically correct African American, but she’s making an effort to compliment me, I see no reason to correct her. I think I would be rude to do so and the reaction would far outweigh the “sin” in rudeness.

I’ll always offer a seat to someone who may need it. It’s up to them to politely decline - I’m offering a courtesy - not making a judgement.

I take advantage of “ladies’ night” drink specials with no problem at all. I’m looking forward to my senior citizens’ discounts when I’m eligible. I’m glad to be an old broad (chick, dame, lady, woman, person…whatever). Some might feel I’m misguided - I’m just a happy person.

194

[QUOTE=Corn Syrup]
I’m seriously hoping that some of you aren’t so socially retarded that you have an anxiety attack while trying to decide whether you should hold a door open or not.

Honestly, I didn’t realize my holding a door for someone, or giving up my seat to someone, could be seen as condescending. I think i’ll just keep my seat from now on, and let the door slam in your face! :dubious:
[/QUOTE]

No need to generalize: people who would outwardly and vehemently express catsix’s mindset are so rare that you can pretty much assume you won’t ever run into one.

BTW … I think a lot of people have missed that catsix explained that, in real life, she doesn’t actually publicly berate men who defer to her out of habitual politeness (seats, doors, etc.). I’ll assume she simply suffers in silence.

195

[QUOTE=Eonwe]

I’m with you in thinking that this is not such a horrible thing, but I think you’re a bit blind to the gender roles being played out in this scenario. You say it doesn’t matter whether the other person is wearing a skirt or pants, and yet we open doors for people of various criteria, and all women. Why not all men as well? Wouldn’t it be polite and kind for anyone to hold the door for anyone else? Why isn’t that the case?

[/QUOTE]

I agree that doors should get held for everyone when time permits; not just women. I never meant to imply that only women were deserving of the courtesy at all. I was just trying to stick to the original subject- women sometimes choose to let their personal equality issues affect courtesy from strangers in a negative way.

Men appreciate the same courtesies and don’t seem to feel that their masculinity is compromised or doubted if someone of either gender holds the door or offers a seat.

My argument is that catsix would not have the same offended reaction if someone of the female gender were extending the same courtesy:

If woman A offers a seat on the bus to woman B, and woman B flies into an offended tirade about equality then I am going to hit the ground laughing. But that scenario would never happen.

196

[QUOTE=catsix]
It’s an antiquated process that should find its way into the history books. I’m hoping it will.
[/QUOTE]
I mean no offense, but you took the easy part of that post and seemed to dodge the rest. I’ll rephrase.

My contention is that while the behavior remain, the attitudes that spawned them have made their way to the history books if I may use your phrasing.

My question to you: do you believe that everyone who offers you a seat/holds a door open for you is intending to demean you or thinks of you as somehow weaker than them.

If so, why?

If not, why let it get to you.

Anyone else in the thread who posted as feeling demeaned by the behaviors in question may also answer if they feel so inclined.

197

Did you never consider that might be the reason I bring it up here?

If you want to call me a bitch because I don’t pussy-foot my point, that’s fine with me. There are plenty of people who like my style, and I’ll be glad to have them as friends.

Would you actually call me ‘young lady’ to my face?

I’m not trying to kill all manners, only the ones that are needlessly gender biased.

You haven’t been reading what I’ve been typing. You’ve been reading what you want to see.

And I’m the bitch?

Then do it for the able-bodied man too. Really, that’s all I’m saying.

And I’ve specifically said at least a half dozen times that this doesn’t bother me at all. Pay attention. The thing that bothers me is when ‘polite gestures’ are based on gender.

Then you’re arguing against something I didn’t say. I said that polite gestures should not be based on gender. My issue, as it has always been, is when the rules are different based on which set of genitals someone has.

If they would do the same for any able bodied man, I have no problem with it.

I want to change the attitude of ‘women and disabled men’ get the courtesy.

198

[QUOTE=catsix]
If they would do the same for any able bodied man, I have no problem with it.

I want to change the attitude of ‘women and disabled men’ get the courtesy.
[/QUOTE]
Most times you won’t know whether or not the person offering the seat would offer it to an able bodied man. Do you ask them before you take the seat?

199

Is this a bad time to bring up trans and intersexed people?

200

I never take the seat. I say ‘No, that’s OK, you were there first.’