Dear Miss Ogynist...Miss Andryst...Miss Anthrope...Miss thang... ahem. Dear catsix,

[catsix]

CanvasShoes said:
And she knows that they are doing it for that reason because?

Because they said so. See this is a web forum. On it, people express opinions and then other people express different opinions. Cemetery Savior and a couple of others have expressed the opinion that they offer seats on trains and buses to any woman, even if she’s totally physically fit, but they don’t do the same for able bodied men. Silly me, I took them at their word and then argued against their practice of doing that.

Apparently the fact that they have directly stated why they do it means I still don’t know their reasons. How, other than being directly told, am I supposed to figure that out?

Triskadeckamus said:
And here we reach the core of my disagreement with you. I have reservations that you routinely asses the motivations of strangers you meet in public with sufficient accuracy to return their courtesy with rudeness in perfect proportion.

Considering that those who have expressed their motivations have all fallen back on ‘it’s custom and therefore polite,’ and that no one has really offered up any other reason than trying to hit on someone, I think it’s fairly safe to assume that it either stems from the antiquated beliefs about the ‘fairer sex’ or they’re trying to hit on someone.

Unless you want to provide some other reasons…

CanvasShoes said:
And how does she just “know” that the mere act of a man giving up his seat to a woman means that he is being condescending?

I have yet to see someone give a reason for it other than 1) antiquated ‘fairer sex’ foolishness or 2) a conversation starter in order to hit on the female in question.

You wanna provide other reasons?

I’ve also yet to see a man here say that he would do the same thing for any able bodied man.

Kalhoun said:
But she has yet to concede that she has no way of knowing what the person’s motivation is, outside of a few people in this thread. In real life, she can’t possibly know, yet she continues to lump all the door holders and seat givers in with the handful of people who dole out kindness according to gender. Far more people have aligned with the “kindness to all” approach, but she still harps on the few who do it to keep da wimmins down.

Before I would do that, I have to have a reason to think it’s not the case. Since so far, there have been no reasons given that are not based on ‘chivalry’, not by anyone, that won’t be possible. The defense of the gender-unequal ‘courtesies’ displayed here have done nothing but reinforce my idea that there is no other motivation behind these unequal ‘courtesies’.

[Harborwolf]

[QUOTE=Zoe]
What you may not realize is how much prejudice against women is still out there. (I wish you could have been present when I went to buy a Jeep Wrangler and my husband accompanied me. One salesperson literally lost out on a sale because he either would not or could not direct his comments to me and he did not know as much about the model as I did and he couldn’t handle that. I can’t tell you what that feels like.)
[/quote]
I can assure you that I am aware of how much prejudice remains. My statement that you quoted pertained only to the behaviors in this thread and other such chivalric gestures.

In my earlier posts I indicated that I am pleasant about having doors held for me and I hold doors for other people if I get there first regardless of their gender. The exception is when I am with my husband. He prefers always to hold the door and I don’t mind.

I would be willing to bet that we can dismiss the holding doors issue outright as it seems to have become common courtesy to hold the door open for people regardless of gender and health. That’s the way I roll as it is for most everyone I know. There may be the occasional spank or time traveler from the Victorian era that wil dive in front of a woman to hold the door open with a grand flourish but that seems like the exception rather than the rule.

I cannot know another individual’s motives. You assume that doors are held for women these days mostly out of courtesy. Someone else might think that it is mostly out of training or habit. Whatever the reason, I think it **subconsciously **perpetuates the notion that women are somehow less capable.

Something is perpetuating that attitude and I don’t always know who notices it. That’s why I asked you those two questions. I was hoping that you would think about them and ask yourself why people still think about women differently.

I’ve always assumed that women are thought of differently because they smell like flowers and have boobies. (Thank yew. I’ll be here all week)

Forgive me if this sounds rude, or if you prefer add a “bless your heart” at the end of the sentence, but I find this idea to be laughable. Holding doors open and offering a seat is a rather small gesture to be perpetuating such a large stereotype. More likely than not, the idea of women as the weaker sex is being kept alive by the people who still believe it and not us poor schmucks trying to do something nice.

Oh my. I’ve wandered away.

Yeah. Senility’ll do that to you.

[QUOTE=catsix]
Considering that those who have expressed their motivations have all fallen back on ‘it’s custom and therefore polite,’ and that no one has really offered up any other reason than trying to hit on someone, I think it’s fairly safe to assume that it either stems from the antiquated beliefs about the ‘fairer sex’ or they’re trying to hit on someone.

Unless you want to provide some other reasons…
[/QUOTE]
Here’s one. I do it to be nice. I’m fairly sure most of the men in this thread will back up that idea if asked.

Now if you could shoot your way back in the thread and get to giving me an answer to the questions I’ve asked it would be just swanky.

[Kalhoun]

[QUOTE=catsix]

Before I would do that, I have to have a reason to think it’s not the case. Since so far, there have been no reasons given that are not based on ‘chivalry’, not by anyone, that won’t be possible. The defense of the gender-unequal ‘courtesies’ displayed here have done nothing but reinforce my idea that there is no other motivation behind these unequal ‘courtesies’.
[/QUOTE]

C’mon, catsix…numerous people in this thread have said that they do it to be nice, or because of an observation that the person is in need. The motivation of “gender” vs. “polite” leans overwhelmingly toward the “polite” corner. If you go by what you read in this thread (as you said you do), why are you ignoring the majority who say they do it because it’s civil…not because of gender?

[Sarahfeena]

[QUOTE=Kalhoun]
C’mon, catsix…numerous people in this thread have said that they do it to be nice, or because of an observation that the person is in need. The motivation of “gender” vs. “polite” leans overwhelmingly toward the “polite” corner. If you go by what you read in this thread (as you said you do), why are you ignoring the majority who say they do it because it’s civil…not because of gender?
[/QUOTE]
My theory would be that it’s because she’s inclined to assume the worst possible motive for even a kind gesture?

I think she has a point that, if a man gives up a seat to a woman, but he doesn’t do it for a man, he has clearly made a distinction based on gender. In my mind the question is…so what? It doesn’t take a genius to notice that men & women are physically different from each other. I think that many men have the idea that men should, to a certain extent, be the physical protectors of women. This is because, in general, they are bigger and stronger than we are. Maybe it’s kind of silly to apply this to a situation such as standing vs. sitting on a bus, but it’s all part of the natural gender roles that come from these obvious differences.

I have never understood why a man helping us in a physical manner somehow means that he is demeaning us as people. If you want to turn down the offer of a seat, fine (I might accept or decline, based on the situation.) But worrying about setting gender relationships backwards by accepting is pretty silly, too.

[Kalhoun]

[QUOTE=Sarahfeena]
My theory would be that it’s because she’s inclined to assume the worst possible motive for even a kind gesture?

I think she has a point that, if a man gives up a seat to a woman, but he doesn’t do it for a man, he has clearly made a distinction based on gender. In my mind the question is…so what? It doesn’t take a genius to notice that men & women are physically different from each other. I think that many men have the idea that men should, to a certain extent, be the physical protectors of women. This is because, in general, they are bigger and stronger than we are. Maybe it’s kind of silly to apply this to a situation such as standing vs. sitting on a bus, but it’s all part of the natural gender roles that come from these obvious differences.

I have never understood why a man helping us in a physical manner somehow means that he is demeaning us as people. If you want to turn down the offer of a seat, fine (I might accept or decline, based on the situation.) But worrying about setting gender relationships backwards by accepting is pretty silly, too.
[/QUOTE]

Back when I was pregnant (that would be when the earth was still cooling) there was a guy I worked with who would run across the room with a chair and make me sit down, just because he assumed I was uncomfortable (I wasn’t…it was the best 9 months of my life, physically). It actually got annoying and no amount of “I’m fine, thanks” would convince him that I wasn’t interested in sitting. But his motives were kind. I demonstrated my “strength as a human being” in other, more tangible ways. I was young, single, pregnant, working, going to school, etc. I know he didn’t perceive me as a weak-and-helpless woman. He was just being supportive.

[Sarahfeena]

[QUOTE=Kalhoun]
Back when I was pregnant (that would be when the earth was still cooling) there was a guy I worked with who would run across the room with a chair and make me sit down, just because he assumed I was uncomfortable (I wasn’t…it was the best 9 months of my life, physically). It actually got annoying and no amount of “I’m fine, thanks” would convince him that I wasn’t interested in sitting. But his motives were kind. I demonstrated my “strength as a human being” in other, more tangible ways. I was young, single, pregnant, working, going to school, etc. I know he didn’t perceive me as a weak-and-helpless woman. He was just being supportive.
[/QUOTE]
Exactly. I think sometimes guys feel kind of helpless when it comes to the “woman stuff” that they know they really CAN’T help us with (like birthing the babies), so they run around, trying to help us in ways we really don’t need, because it makes them feel like they are doing SOMETHING to help us out.

[Kalhoun]

[QUOTE=Sarahfeena]
Exactly. I think sometimes guys feel kind of helpless when it comes to the “woman stuff” that they know they really CAN’T help us with (like birthing the babies), so they run around, trying to help us in ways we really don’t need, because it makes them feel like they are doing SOMETHING to help us out.
[/QUOTE]

That’s right. A man can have a hundred children, but he’ll never know the curious, bizarre feeling of having a fetus growing inside him. It’s a mystery they’ll *never * figure out, so they let their imaginations run wild and just kind of get carried away with it. It’s actually rather amusing!

[Ukulele_Ike]

Gesundheit.

[bordelond]

[QUOTE=Maureen]
Well…that’s originally what opening a door for a lady implied, so since we all know that words, gestures and traditions never EVER change meaning…oh, wait…
[/QUOTE]

Well said, Maureen. I offer you a virtual outstretched hand … merely to demonstrate that I have no weapon in same hand, you see.

…

Zoe: equality and etiquette are nowhere near mutually exclusive. YMMV.

Originally Posted by Sarahfeena
*I think she has a point that, if a man gives up a seat to a woman, but he doesn’t do it for a man, he has clearly made a distinction based on gender. In my mind the question is…so what? It doesn’t take a genius to notice that men & women are physically different from each other. I think that many men have the idea that men should, to a certain extent, be the physical protectors of women. This is because, in general, they are bigger and stronger than we are. Maybe it’s kind of silly to apply this to a situation such as standing vs. sitting on a bus, but it’s all part of the natural gender roles that come from these obvious differences.

I have never understood why a man helping us in a physical manner somehow means that he is demeaning us as people. If you want to turn down the offer of a seat, fine (I might accept or decline, based on the situation.) But worrying about setting gender relationships backwards by accepting is pretty silly, too.*

Exactly.

Catsix … have you ever before asked a man to borrow his strength for a small favor? Like to open a jar or move a heavy object? If so, did you brood upon it and feel bad for a long time? If not, do you just go to whatever lengths are necessary to avoid asking a man for help?

[Contrapuntal]

[QUOTE=Kalhoun]
Back when I was pregnant (that would be when the earth was still cooling) there was a guy I worked with who would run across the room with a chair and make me sit down, just because he assumed I was uncomfortable (I wasn’t…it was the best 9 months of my life, physically). It actually got annoying and no amount of “I’m fine, thanks” would convince him that I wasn’t interested in sitting.
[/QUOTE]
One of my many jobs working my way through college was as a delivery guy in a sandwich shop owned by a couple of friends of mine. We all worked pretty hard from 9-3 or so, all of it on our feet. One of the owners was well into her pregnancy, and after hearing the question “how do you feel?” one time too many had a T-shirt printed up that simply said “I’m Fine!” in big letters on the front.

[Kalhoun]

[QUOTE=Ukulele Ike]
Gesundheit.
[/QUOTE]

I’m not sure how I’m supposed to take this.

[Ukulele_Ike]

[QUOTE=Ukulele Ike]
…I always say “Gesundheit.”
[/QUOTE]

Just proving a point.

[Beaucarnea]

[QUOTE=catsix]
Because they said so. See this is a web forum. On it, people express opinions and then other people express different opinions. Cemetery Savior and a couple of others have expressed the opinion that they offer seats on trains and buses to any woman, even if she’s totally physically fit, but they don’t do the same for able bodied men. Silly me, I took them at their word and then argued against their practice of doing that.

Apparently the fact that they have directly stated why they do it means I still don’t know their reasons. How, other than being directly told, am I supposed to figure that out?

Considering that those who have expressed their motivations have all fallen back on ‘it’s custom and therefore polite,’ and that no one has really offered up any other reason than trying to hit on someone, I think it’s fairly safe to assume that it either stems from the antiquated beliefs about the ‘fairer sex’ or they’re trying to hit on someone.

Unless you want to provide some other reasons…

I have yet to see someone give a reason for it other than 1) antiquated ‘fairer sex’ foolishness or 2) a conversation starter in order to hit on the female in question.

You wanna provide other reasons?

[/QUOTE]

A man open doors for or offers seat to catsix for reason:

A. Because it would appear that she has her hands full what with that delicate parasol and hoop skirt.

B. In order to check out her sweet behind.

C. In order to undermine the masculinity of her accompanying man hunk.

D. Because she is such a delicate little lady with a demure attitude and fine boned wrists and appears to need help mastering the heavy door.

E. Because she is of marriagable age and has nice childbearing hips.

F. Because he would open the door for anyone behind him: male, female, attractive, average, handicapped, able-bodied, young, old, friendly, or unfriendly.
Listen, antiquated habit or not, men seldom feel that women are helpless anymore. I don’t know where you live, catsix , but unless you live in 1930, women around here work, graduate college, successfully raise children in single-mom households without the help of a man, lift heavy objects, pay bills, find seats on the train and open doors by themselves. And they have been doing so successfully for 40+ years. Women are no longer thought of as helpless little things.

[Kalhoun]

[QUOTE=Ukulele Ike]
Just proving a point.
[/QUOTE]

K…then I think that’s a good thing.

[Ukulele_Ike]

Gesundheit.

[EddyTeddyFreddy]

[QUOTE=catsix]

@Sampiro

Mother’s Day wasn’t a really big to do at your place, was it?

Not really, no. My mum wasn’t even receptive to getting a gift or a card or anything.
[/QUOTE]
Not surprising, considering what being a breeder spawned.

[pulykamell]

Interesting discussion.

Philosophically, catsix is right. The whole custom does indeed stem from the idea that women are the “fairer, gentler sex.” However, being a practical person and having grown up in an environment that respected perhaps now-outmoded codes of chivalry, I do hold open doors for women, let them in the elevator first, etc. I don’t generally give up my seat on the bus for them, but I do that for pregnant women and the elderly (male or female–when I lived in Budapest, grannies would almost physically take the seat from you if you didn’t give it up.) It’s playing the numbers. The chances of someone appreciating my gesture far outnumber somebody reacting aversely to it, so why should I not be chivalrous?
Many women lament to me about the lack of “gentlemen” in society, so I’ll gladly play the part. It’s worked for me thus far, and I have no incentive to chage.

So, yes catsix, you have no argument from me and I can understand your Kate Roiphe-esque POVs. If I ever met you, I would know enough not to offer a seat or hold open doors for you. However, 99% of the time, it works out better for me to follow the old social norms, and thus I will continue doing so for strangers.

[amijane]

6 pages in isn’t the greatest place to make my first contribution to this thread, but here we go…

I agree with most of catsix’s opinions, but practice them in a different manner. If someone opens a door for me for any other reason than my hands being full of a heavy load, I’ll smile and say “Oh no, after you, please”. I will insist on this point, politely. Good manners resulting from patriarchal society are not something I’m interested in accepting, but I can refuse the gesture with good grace. And refuse it I will, every time. It’s as important to me as it is to you that you hold the door open for me in the first place, so why should I be the one to deny what’s right to me, as long as I’m polite about it?

“Young lady” - from this thread, seems to me to mean different things in different geographical areas. Where I like and in all the many places I have lived, regardless of screaming B.S’o’meters, it is ONLY used in a finger-wagging manner. It does not mean anything that is not consciously patronising. Call me a young lady and I’ll you condescending, rude and disrespectful. But that’s just me!

“Hell” is foulmouthed?? Where? I hope I never go there.

I would always offer a pregnant women my seat, even though I firmly agree that they have chosen to suffer the symptoms of heavy pregnancy so shouldn’t have an automatic right to a seat. I am unable to have children and seeing pregnant women is like a dagger through my heart. Does anyone give the slightest pooh about the mental hurt and discomfort caused to me by having to be around pregnant women? Nope, nobody but my husband, so forgive me if I couldn’t give the slightest crap about their swollen ankles. My ankles swell as well, caused by the same hormonal problem that denies me children. SUCK IT UP, preggers: You get a baby at the end of it, I don’t. I’ll still offer you my seat but whine about your physical discomfort to me and I’ll bite your head off.

[Boyo_Jim]

I didn’t finnd anything offensive among catsix’s comments in the linked thread in the OP – though I admit I only went through the first 3 pages.

This is SO simple – I’m amazed that the term “patronizing” hasn’t come up yet. Catsix doesn’t like to be patronized – the intent of the patronizer doesn’t really matter. Why is this hard to understand? Haven’t we all felt insult even though we get it that the insulter wasn’t being deliberately hostile?

And if someone is doling out sexixt bullshit (okay, a man offering any and all women his seat is an admitterdly SMALL pile if it), it’s a good thing that every once in a while they get reminded that someone might be offended. How would they otherwise learn? I’m not suggesting a tirade. But a rather short and sharp “No” might discombobulate them enough that maybe they’ll talk to someone close to them who might clue them in.

I dunno, did I miss a catsix post where she advocates publicly dressing down such offenders at length? Personally that’s going a little to far for me, as I an not a fan of confrontation. I would rather have a toke and mellow out.

[Guinastasia]

[QUOTE=Kalhoun]
C’mon, catsix…numerous people in this thread have said that they do it to be nice, or because of an observation that the person is in need. The motivation of “gender” vs. “polite” leans overwhelmingly toward the “polite” corner. If you go by what you read in this thread (as you said you do), why are you ignoring the majority who say they do it because it’s civil…not because of gender?
[/QUOTE]

At this point, I doubt she even knows what “nice” is, being as how she never seems to act that way.

eleanorigby, sadly, she’s from Pittsburgh, like myself. I assure you though, if you ever come here, I will open doors for you.