[Quote=Oakminster]
Do you deny that if he made a similar statement in pretty much any local bar around the country, ass kicking would likely ensue? Words can provoke violence. In the world I live in, wishing death or otherwise offering grievious insult to someone’s family is at least an even money bet for an ass kicking. In some bars I’ve been known to frequent, it’s a virtual guarantee.
[/Quote]
Er, so the appropriate model for social behavior is the actions of a bunch of drunks in a bar?
What, are you, like, a really big and scary-looking guy? Please, be clear. If he did express his preference for the demise of US soldiers rather than Iraqi civilians to your face, you would in fact attack him physically, right?
I’m not a lawyer, of course, but IMO attitudes like yours are precisely why the laws on assault and battery in the US generally contain the following caveat:
[QUOTE=Oakminster]
If I did have some magical means of confronting Der Trihs, he’s still got an out. He can refuse to repeat the statement while I’m staring him in the face. This is the option I’d expect him to choose. The sheer terror and pants wetting would be funny, though.
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Yes, and you’d still have an out: you could refuse to respond to words with violence. If you didn’t take that out, you’d be the person behaving more unethically: you’d be the worse person than him. Evil speech is not as bad as physical violence. And those who respond to speech with violence are thugs who present a tremendous threat to civil society, and deserve harsh punishment–all the harsher when their actions are viscerally satisfying, because those viscerally satisfying evils are the most tempting and therefore need the harshest deterrents.
[QUOTE=Left Hand of Dorkness]
Yes, and you’d still have an out: you could refuse to respond to words with violence. If you didn’t take that out, you’d be the person behaving more unethically: you’d be the worse person than him. Evil speech is not as bad as physical violence. And those who respond to speech with violence are thugs who present a tremendous threat to civil society, and deserve harsh punishment–all the harsher when their actions are viscerally satisfying, because those viscerally satisfying evils are the most tempting and therefore need the harshest deterrents.
Daniel
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Of course there are a few exceptions. Someone rabble rousing others to violence is first exception of which I can think. This is not something that Der Trihs is guilty of to my knowledge. I lean towards no protection of the KKK and Neo-Nazis. I am not sure how to justify it, but I choose to be irrational on this subject. I could probably make an exception for scum like Rev. Phelps.
If Der Trihs did spout his hate speech at a funeral, I might not be able to restrain myself. So while I would not start a fight with him in a bar, I might under extremely inappropriate circumstances. I would not condemn someone if the failed in this regard.
[QUOTE=jsgoddess]
I don’t think he wants physical violence to happen to anyone, but since it is happening, he wants it to happen to the people he feels are in the wrong–Americans–rather than people he feels are in the right. I sincerely doubt that DT was sitting around before the Iraq debacle began saying that he hoped all US troops would die.
American involvement in Iraq is getting Iraqis killed by the truckload. Americans are directly and indirectly killing Iraqis. He’d rather the Iraqis killed the Americans first.
I think it’s completely understandable. People on this board are reacting to the rarity of having someone not so bound up in nationalism that they root for their country even when that means hundreds of thousands of “other people” get killed.
As for this idea that he would be frightened to talk about this in person, there are places in this country where it’s unsafe to admit you’re gay, or an atheist, or a wiccan, or to shop at Target. If this were in person, I’d be afraid of half of you.
That’s the sort of attempts at intimidation this board is supposed to be above.
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Thank you. Not just because I agree with everything you wrote, but because I’d be just as wiling to “meet people at a bar” as the all the keyboard warriors who want a piece of Der Trish. Has nothing to do with cojones (not being a pacifist, my sack is full. Bragging? Try me) but with reasoning. And the murderous invasion of a nation that posed no threat to your own is nothing but the schoolyard bully tactics that are being used, for lack of coherent arguments, against Der Trish’s clearly defined position. Personally, I am not as radical as him in his expressed opinions – I wish death on no one. But I do agree that BushCo’s US of A, MUST be defeated in Iraq. Make of that what you will. Shouldn’t be too difficult if you have more than one or two brain cells to rub.
OTOH, I thank the SDMB and its mods for “allowing” the dissent that made your nation great to begin with. Afraid it’s all going down hill raher quickly.
I have no wish for America’s demise. But apparently most of you do. Till the last Congressional elections that is.
[QUOTE=Oakminster]
Thing is, I never threatened him. I did invite him to repeat the statement within arms reach. I have strongly implied that if he were foolish enough to do so, I would react in a manner he found highly unpleasant. That’s not a threat. It’s a conditional hypothetical. If he did X, I would do Y.
A threat would be “I’m going to kick HypotheticalPoster01’s ass. I’ll use my uberleet haxxor skills to identify HyptheticalPoster01, travel to wherever he lives, knock on his door, and punch him in the nose. Bop!”
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Real tough guy you are. 'cept for the fact that things might not turn out the way you’d like them to and it be you that found the meeting “highly unpleasant.”
Sort of like Bush’s Iraq.
What bar and when? A conditional hypothetical of course – unless you’d like to use my e-mail addy. Awesome beer down here…on me of course.
[QUOTE=What Exit?]
Of course there are a few exceptions. Someone rabble rousing others to violence is first exception of which I can think. This is not something that Der Trihs is guilty of to my knowledge. I lean towards no protection of the KKK and Neo-Nazis. I am not sure how to justify it, but I choose to be irrational on this subject. I could probably make an exception for scum like Rev. Phelps.
If Der Trihs did spout his hate speech at a funeral, I might not be able to restrain myself. So while I would not start a fight with him in a bar, I might under extremely inappropriate circumstances. I would not condemn someone if the failed in this regard.
Jim
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And this is exactly the rub, isn’t it? I think that all of us could be provoked by a particular set of words. If I had a 6 year old daughter and someone got in my face describing all manner of horrors he would visit upon her if given the chance, there is a point that if I broke his nose that I’d be excused. Now I think this treshold is high, and that we do well to keep it high. But the threshold exists, and it is different for each of us, as far as the particular set of words goes.
Now this has little to do with justice, as one could wind up both being gravely insulted and wind up with a world-class beating. Such are the risks when we move away from the realm of words.
I rarely agree with Oakminster, but he is absolutely correct here. He is merely acknowledging the real world. I think the vast amount of people who participate in a board like this would be quick to violence, but that doesn’t mean that we don’t have it in us. Or, that at times, it is an appropriate response. It’s part of the human condition. Denying that makes for a nice speech, but for anything resembling reality.
[QUOTE=RedFury]
Awesome beer down here…on me of course.
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I like beer. I also like posting here. I suspect if I were to accept your challenge openly, we’d both get the boot. I suggest we don’t discuss this further in this forum.
However, your bullying words basically prove him right. I like to think Id come to your bar and (without hitting you, because grown men dont have to do that over harsh words, and because being bigger and stronger than you wouldnt make me right) tell you youre a bunch of fucking pussies for threatening a guy over the internet, and I suspect most of you wouldnt say shit back because youre the kind of people who threaten other people over the internet.
Wishing death on U.S. soldiers is pretty despicable, but wishing them success in their mission is wishing death on people who want to defend their country from foreign invaders. I don`t see any good guys in this thread, really.
Wishing them success in their mission isn’t necessarily wishing death on others. Their mission is to bring peace to that country, to bring security to it, and to enable that country’s civilian government to rule the place. Don’t have to kill to do that.
[QUOTE=Monty]
Wishing them success in their mission isn’t necessarily wishing death on others. Their mission is to bring peace to that country, to bring security to it, and to enable that country’s civilian government to rule the place. Don’t have to kill to do that.
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I would argue that their presence there is counterproductive to their stated aims, simply because a significant portion of the populace doesn`t want them there. Further, whenever the U.S. armed forces kill innocents, whether through honest accident or a criminal forgetting what it means to be an American soldier, the whole region is pushed farther away from democracy and peace and closer to anti-American extremism. The interests of America are not served by our presence there, they never were, and the situation will not improve as long as we stay.
[QUOTE=Oakminster]
I do not have the present ability to bop Der Trihs in the nose. I do not know who he is, or where he lives. I can’t ask Scotty to beam me there.
If I did have some magical means of confronting Der Trihs, he’s still got an out. He can refuse to repeat the statement while I’m staring him in the face. This is the option I’d expect him to choose. The sheer terror and pants wetting would be funny, though.
[/QUOTE]
Scyllla and Stones, meet your online keyboard warrior, Oakminster. He seems to think of himself just as highly (physically and mentally) as you two deushbags do.
Oakminster, might I suggest you quit your chest puffing and stop writing checks that only your ego can cash? I mean, really, who the fuck do you think you’re impressing? Other than yourself that is.
However, your bullying words basically prove him right. I like to think Id come to your bar and (without hitting you, because grown men dont have to do that over harsh words, and because being bigger and stronger than you wouldnt make me right) tell you youre a bunch of fucking pussies for threatening a guy over the internet, and I suspect most of you wouldnt say shit back because youre the kind of people who threaten other people over the internet.
Wishing death on U.S. soldiers is pretty despicable, but wishing them success in their mission is wishing death on people who want to defend their country from foreign invaders. I don`t see any good guys in this thread, really.
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Amen*
*If coming from an atheist it’s worth anything. If not, I fully agree with your sentiment.
[QUOTE=Monty]
Wishing them success in their mission isn’t necessarily wishing death on others. Their mission is to bring peace to that country, to bring security to it, and to enable that country’s civilian government to rule the place. Don’t have to kill to do that.
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Have another cup. You kool-aid drinkers make me ill.
Like fuck those are the aims of your Government. Try imperialism and oil control.
What’re you on about? For one thing, I don’t like Kook-Aid. For another, I don’t even like President Bush. For yet another, your comment about imperialism being our aim shows you, not me, to be the one operating without own control of his mind.
[QUOTE=RedFury] Oakminster, might I suggest you quit your chest puffing and stop writing checks that only your ego can cash? I mean, really, who the fuck do you think you’re impressing? Other than yourself that is.
Asshole.
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Told ya we ain’t gonna discuss this here. Kindly fuck off.
[QUOTE=Oakminster]
I like beer. I also like posting here. I suspect if I were to accept your challenge openly, we’d both get the boot. I suggest we don’t discuss this further in this forum.
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Than I suggest you quit your not-so-coy, physical threats versus those who oppose your silly, flag-waiving, star-spangled banner patriotism.
Surely, even someone as stupid as you should have noticed, even a third rate nation can bog down your awesome military machine.
Face it, you don’t own the world and you never will.
[QUOTE=Monty]
What’re you on about? For one thing, I don’t like Kook-Aid. For another, I don’t even like President Bush. For yet another, your comment about imperialism being our aim shows you, not me, to be the one operating without own control of his mind.
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