Did Jesus' death redeem the betrayal of Judas?

[monavis]

@kanicbird

Jesus allowed people free will even knowing what they would do with it, Judas was no exception. Denying people free will would violate the plan of having people come to God from free will.

We don’t live in life here on earth, but we are already in death. All life here is temporary and all life is in the stages of death one it starts. This is the condition of the original sin, it is also the mercy of God, that even in this death there is still much life remaining. The life refers to the eternal life, that of Adam and Eve before the fall. That is the life that Jesus talks about.

The reason Jesus had to die is difficult to understand in our current world. It is best defined as how marriage was intended by God. The two people become one person. This is not the marriage as we commonly know it but something much more wonderful. What happens in this is Jesus sinless dies alone. The Father calls Satan on it and says what charge did you have against Jesus, Satan says none, and the Father then corrects the error and raises Jesus (along with other benefits).

Jesus had then paid the penalty for sin though He didn’t own the penalty and is now alive. When from the marriage example, Jesus and a believer become one person, that person, though he has sinned, has already paid penalty, since Jesus has already died and now Jesus and that person are the same.

There is a case for a eternal fire, but IMHO not eternal punishment. God is Love, and God desires all to be saved, And there is no plan of God that can be overcome. So how can anyone be lost eternally? If there was God would be in eternal grief over the loss of one if His children.

To put in another way, Jesus can raise people from the dead, and has given that power to anyone who believes, so how can anyone be eternally lost?

Jesus as a man did not know everything, this is quite clear in scriptures (He didn’t know who touched Him when the woman was cured, and didn’t know the day or hour of His return, but the Father knew), Also it is reasonable that Jesus had to find out the extent of His ministry as He was doing it, learning as He was working. This is inline with scriptures, we are asked to learn as we go, Jesus would have a unfair advantage if He knew everything and we don’t, which would require more on us then on Jesus (and that violates scriptures).

Free will is not saying you can do as you wish, but if you don’t do as I say you will die or suffer eternal punishment.

[The_Other_Waldo_Pepper]

@kanicbird

On the basis of 2 Sam24:1 compared to 1 Chron 21:1 we not only have the real possibility of Satan hardening the heart of Pharaoh, but something much larger. That God is willing to take the blame and punishment (via Jesus) for Satan

Or it means Satan is simply doing God’s will in such circumstances. In which case there’s nothing unusual about God’s willingness to take the blame or punishment for events he remains the author of.

I believe it is clear from the NT that they were under the control of Satan, so no they were not under their free will.

In which case, there’s nothing to forgive.

In the case of Pharaoh it is pretty clearly inferred that yes Pharaoh would have made a different decision if his heard was not supernaturally hardened.

Likewise.

[kanicbird]

@The_Other_Waldo_Pepper

In which case, there’s nothing to forgive.

Exactly, this is part of the message of Jesus, there is nothing to forgive as everything has been forgiven.

The message of needed to be forgiven comes from Satan, and keeps people in guilt and shame and trying to do good in their own effort.

Jesus says you are God’s beloved child, there is nothing you can do that you could ever do to stop Him from loving you and accepting you. God made you and God alone is responsible for your mistakes. It is only Satan and your false beliefs that made you think it was your fault.

[kanicbird]

@monavis

Free will is not saying you can do as you wish, but if you don’t do as I say you will die or suffer eternal punishment.

The other side of this is the person deciding out of free will to chose eternal punishment - this is our current state. God allows a free will choice to come back or to stay there.

btw this world is already a form of eternal punishment, reincarnation as stated in many faiths is just a form of eternally dieing over and over. The reason for this is to give as many chances for on to change their minds and make a free will decision to come back to life.

It is the prodigal son parable.

[kanicbird]

@j66

I thought the Christ was sacrificed to remove the stain of the original sin - eating of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil - from our souls, not for the personal sins we would committ. Do I have that wrong?

Christ removes all sin. You are no longer looked at as a sinner, but as God’s child and it is God’s responsibility for everything you do, and also God’s responsibility to teach you His ways, so there is discipline and some hard learning sometimes. But there is no mistake, absolutely none, you can make that will break that relationship as you are the child He is the parent, you make mistakes He corrects them as you learn.

[Koxinga]

Back to the subject of Judas’ motivation to betray Jesus - I think that’s also a fascinating question that’s been treated differently by every movie about the Passion I’ve seen. I remember one (maybe made for TV) movie that portrayed Judas as really enthusiastic about what he thought Jesus’ message was supposed to be, but was frustrated that Jesus just wasn’t forward enough in confronting the priests and the Romans. By “betraying” Jesus he was actually trying to set things up so that Jesus could make his perfect, detailed apologia right in the priests’ faces, and was shocked when the Lord refused to say anything to them and ended up going mostly silently to his death.

Anybody remember this movie, or is it a common interpretation?

[Love_Rhombus]

@kanicbird

Do you perhaps have any charges against Jesus you wish to bring forth?

Yeah, he allowed a lot of bad crap to happen in his name later on, and he killed that fig tree for no reason.

[monavis]

@kanicbird

Christ removes all sin. You are no longer looked at as a sinner, but as God’s child and it is God’s responsibility for everything you do, and also God’s responsibility to teach you His ways, so there is discipline and some hard learning sometimes. But there is no mistake, absolutely none, you can make that will break that relationship as you are the child He is the parent, you make mistakes He corrects them as you learn.

Sadly, no one knows God’s ways, just the belief in what a human says is God’s ways.And the fact that many have different ideas of what are God’s ways it is impossible to know. If one believes the Koran, they think that is Gods ways, and since they were taught that, one can’t tell them it isn’t, any more than one who accepts the Bible!

[kanicbird]

@monavis

Sadly, no one knows God’s ways, just the belief in what a human says is God’s ways.

God offers to teach us His ways if we ask, so I disagree with your statement and it is very joyful to learn His ways. the say part would be if God doesn’t want to teach us, fortunately that is not true, God wants us not only to learn His ways, but to empower you with His ways one you learn them.

As for what a human says about Him, this is also a point I disagree with. The way I understand it is if you seek Him He will find you, scripturally it is written more like if you seek Him you will find Him.

How it works from my understanding: There is a longing of the Human heart for God, for Love (those 2 are the same) and for home. The distractions and goals of this world delay that, but eventually we will all long for Love, and which point we will seek Him no matter where we are in the world.

It does not matter how you search, you could search through any faith, any practice, any book, all that matters is that you search. You finding God is God’s responsibility, not yours.

In your case you may have trouble finding God though works of man, you may try meditation, again whatever method you choose you will find Him. After all God is above and able to compensate for all works of man.

And the fact that many have different ideas of what are God’s ways it is impossible to know. If one believes the Koran, they think that is Gods ways, and since they were taught that, one can’t tell them it isn’t, any more than one who accepts the Bible!

Again I disagree given my statement above, no matter what route you chose finding God is God’s responsibility, not yours, yours is simply to seek. And yes you will make mistakes along the way, those are used to learn His ways.

[kanicbird]

@Love_Rhombus

Yeah, he allowed a lot of bad crap to happen in his name later on, and he killed that fig tree for no reason.

What is your evidence on the fig tree? Do you content that simply cursing a tree could kill it, if so you have probably condemned yourself if you even uttered a curse, as you accepted that curses are real.

Do you also want to contend that someone who commits a inhumane act can get off simply by saying that it was done in another person’s name? And that person who is named face the punishment?

[monavis]

@kanicbird

God offers to teach us His ways if we ask, so I disagree with your statement and it is very joyful to learn His ways. the say part would be if God doesn’t want to teach us, fortunately that is not true, God wants us not only to learn His ways, but to empower you with His ways one you learn them.

As for what a human says about Him, this is also a point I disagree with. The way I understand it is if you seek Him He will find you, scripturally it is written more like if you seek Him you will find Him.

How it works from my understanding: There is a longing of the Human heart for God, for Love (those 2 are the same) and for home. The distractions and goals of this world delay that, but eventually we will all long for Love, and which point we will seek Him no matter where we are in the world.

It does not matter how you search, you could search through any faith, any practice, any book, all that matters is that you search. You finding God is God’s responsibility, not yours.

In your case you may have trouble finding God though works of man, you may try meditation, again whatever method you choose you will find Him. After all God is above and able to compensate for all works of man.

Again I disagree given my statement above, no matter what route you chose finding God is God’s responsibility, not yours, yours is simply to seek. And yes you will make mistakes along the way, those are used to learn His ways.

That is your belief and your right to belive it, but it is not a fact!!!

[monavis]

@kanicbird

What is your evidence on the fig tree? Do you content that simply cursing a tree could kill it, if so you have probably condemned yourself if you even uttered a curse, as you accepted that curses are real.

Do you also want to contend that someone who commits a inhumane act can get off simply by saying that it was done in another person’s name? And that person who is named face the punishment?

It was an unfair judgement of the fig tree, Jesus was supposed to have killed it because it wouldn’t produce figs out of season!

[crewface]

Judas was a Soviet spy and did the right thing when his cover was blown. Cyanide tooth.

[Biffer_Spice_1]

wow, if judas did get redeemed and is up in heaven, that must have been a pretty heavy atmosphere when they ran into each other!

awk-ward!!!

[monavis]

@kanicbird

So you are saying hale Pharaoh, as if it were not for Pharoah’s free will begin taken God’s plan would fail. And if it was not for evil God could not be good.

God would Love it if Pharaoh reformed his ways and set all the people free instead of being a puppet of Satan’s hate. God is Love.

Some of His children are so hurt that they don’t respond to love, God will allow things like fear scare them to God if needed, perhaps the reason evil is currently allowed to exist- The wheat and tears (weeds) parable comes into play here.

God is said to have created Satan and knew he would take his children from Him , so God is responsible for all of Satan’s evil deeds. He could have destroyed Satan but chose to let him harm the human’s he created!! This is not the loving act of a loving father. No human father who created a monster and let it kill or maim his child would ever be called good!

[BrainGlutton]

Imagine little Jesus sitting on Mary’s lap and she’s filling him in . . .

MARY: And you’re the Messiah, see, you’re the Son of God, and when you grow up, you’re going to be crucified, and then rise alive from the grave and ascend to Heaven.

JESUS: Crucified?! That thing the Romans do to bandits?! :eek: Do I hafta?!

MARY: No, this is important! It’s how you’ll save the world!

JESUS: . . . Save it from what, Ma? . . . Is another Flood coming?! :eek:

MARY: No, no, you’ll save the world from sin!

JESUS: You mean, after I do this, people won’t sin any more?! . . . I guess that’s worth a crucifixion!

MARY: No, people will still sin, but they’ll feel really bad about it and beg you to forgive them, and then at the end maybe they’ll get to go to Heaven instead of Hell, even though they know deep down they don’t really deserve it.

JESUS: . . . Can’t I just be carpenter?

[David42]

@lee

My Sunday school teacher hammered into use (figuratively) that we can’t know if Judas’ betrayal was necessary, and in any case, we ought not focus on his perceived sins and shortcomings when we have so many of our own. He said that we should hope that Judas is waiting in heaven, as it would bode well for our own salvation.

I am just getting into this thread–I see it is a little old, but I have only read this far.

This is so well said. I far more expect to see Judas in Paradise than the people who insist he can’t possibly be there. (I don’t mean anyone specifically who has commented here.) They paint a picture of a vengeful Jesus rather than a forgiving one. Even if one accepts suicide in all cases as sin, one could still change one’s heart before one dies…it just makes it ironic.

[David42]

@Biffer_Spice

wow, if judas did get redeemed and is up in heaven, that must have been a pretty heavy atmosphere when they ran into each other!

awk-ward!!!

If the meeting occurs out of love and forgiveness, I fail to understand how it could be awkward. A heavy atmosphere atttributes the feelings of having a grudge–exactly the opposite of having forgiveness.

[David42]

@monavis

God is said to have created Satan and knew he would take his children from Him , so God is responsible for all of Satan’s evil deeds. He could have destroyed Satan but chose to let him harm the human’s he created!! This is not the loving act of a loving father. No human father who created a monster and let it kill or maim his child would ever be called good!

But is it a saying or does scripture say it? (For the purposes of this question, I am defining scripture as the protestant bible. I’m not trying to not be culturally relevant, though, so many other definitions of scripture are fine with me, just pick your poison, friend. ;))

Yah does claim responsibility for creating evil in the bible, at least twice. But having created evil and being responsible for someone’s evil deeds in a sense that the person is therefore not responsible isn’t scriptural that I know of.

[David42]

@BrainGlutton

Imagine little Jesus sitting on Mary’s lap and she’s filling him in . . .

MARY: And you’re the Messiah, see, you’re the Son of God, and when you grow up, you’re going to be crucified, and then rise alive from the grave and ascend to Heaven.

JESUS: Crucified?! That thing the Romans do to bandits?! :eek: Do I hafta?!

MARY: No, this is important! It’s how you’ll save the world!

JESUS: . . . Save it from what, Ma? . . . Is another Flood coming?! :eek:

MARY: No, no, you’ll save the world from sin!

JESUS: You mean, after I do this, people won’t sin any more?! . . . I guess that’s worth a crucifixion!

MARY: No, people will still sin, but they’ll feel really bad about it and beg you to forgive them, and then at the end maybe they’ll get to go to Heaven instead of Hell, even though they know deep down they don’t really deserve it.

JESUS: . . . Can’t I just be carpenter?

I appreciate your imagination. Very human protrayal.