We wouldn’t have such a huge supply of jerks if there wasn’t such a big demand for them.
No. At least, this girl doesn’t. I will concede, however, that there are a lot of girls who think that they don’t deserve the nice guys. I should know. I was one of them. I dated a jerk for a good while before I met my current SO/fiance/I need a cute name for him, and, while I was with him, I thought I was lucky to have even him. It’s a self esteem thing, in that case.
A lot of times, though, “you’re too nice” can mean something like “you’re not drop-dead gorgeous enough,” or “you’re not strong enough to best a rabid wolverine in a wrestling match.” Basically, it can mean that you don’t live up to one of the girl’s superficial standard, and she’s too stupid to think of a more specific reason to turn you down, so she falls upon this one, thinking that it isn’t insulting. In that case, the guy in question needs to stop dating such superficial women.
And, oh yeah. What ruadh said.
Can I give you the perspective of a 40+ married man? The “You’re too nice” line sounds like a newer version of the seventies line “You’re like a brother to me.” A nice (ahem) safe way of saying “Look, you alright to talk to, but I don’t have enough sexual interest in you to date, unless I need a free meal.”
First, I’m not denying that there are women who fall for jerks. Guys were talking about that before the “You’re too nice” line. In college, all the guys noticed that the jerks got dates quite often. Back in the 40’s, according to “Surely you’re joking …”, Feynman noticed that when he treated women shabbily he got dates. When he treated them well he didn’t. As I stated in some other thread, some women confuse arrogance for confidence. The good news is, most women eventually learn. A few are pathological, and will always go for jerks.
However, guys, we can learn too. Once I learned, I * never * go that “You’re too nice” kind of line. (I did get told “I have to go to a funeral” once. :rolleyes: ) Ok, maybe I’m a jerk, but I think eventually learned how to be nice, and confident too. As C.S. Lewis said in the “Screwtape Letters”, people become that which they pretend. Pretend to be confident, and you will be confident. I started by hitting on the second prettiest girl at the party. I discovered that if you just confidently walk up to women, and * nicely * say something like “Hi. I’m SMT. Would you like to dance?”, they are almost always nice. And those few times you are rejected, it will almost always be nicely. Frankly, if you can’t recognize the kind of woman who will spew beer out her nose simply because you tried to talk to her, you need more help than Cecil can provide.
Of course, you have to learn to recognize the kind of woman you want, also. If you approach a woman, and she acts like a b$tch, it could be a bad day. If most of the women you approach act like a b$tch, maybe you are attracted to them. Sometimes, the shoe is on the other foot. Sometimes, the shoe is on both feet.
Yes yes YES!!!
I’ve learned to run for the hills the minute a guy says, “I’m a nice guy, but girls don’t like nice guys.” Because EVERY TIME I met a guy who said that, he turned out to be a passive-aggressive, doormat who was manipulative by making me feel guilty for walking all over him-after he invited me too!
ALWAYS letting me have decisions-okay, but you NEVER offer suggestions! It’s always, “What you want to do-you are more important!” Or “You’re so wonderful, I don’t know why you hang around with me, you’ve brought so much sunshine into my life.”
And we weren’t even THAT close. Just friends!
I don’t find being nice off-putting, but I do find being nice out of “chivalry” a bit so. It’s one thing to, say, open the door for a woman (or anyone) who, say, has a lot of packages in their arms…she could do the same for you if you need it. However, if you are opening the door for her just because she doesn’t happen to have a penis… Well, just what is that implying? That not having a penis is some sort of handicap? And do you have similar old-fashioned attitudes when it comes to sex and the roles of men and women? (I’m not saying that the OP does–I am saying that this is what probably runs through the mind of a woman who sees a “chivalrous” man.)
Do you see what I mean? It’s one thing for a man to respect me as a human being, and to help me when I need help, and to accept help when he needs it. However, I am not a queen, a princess, or a child. I can open my own car doors and put on my own coat, and I’ll walk on whichever side of the sidewalk I please. It sounds like the OP’s co-workers feel the same way.
However, it sounds like, to me, that the OP’s girlfriend suffers from low self-esteem of some sort. That’s probably different from the usual “you’re too nice = you’re too passive” In this case, “you’re too nice” means “You don’t treat me like shit like my other boyfriends did, and I don’t feel that I deserve that.” She might also feel like “damaged goods” in some way. You treating her with respect doesn’t reflect the way she sees herself…she’s bothered by this cognitive dissonance, so she wants to seek out someone who does treat her the way she “deserves” to be treated. I’m not sure that there’s anything you can do about it…you’re probably not willing to turn yourself into enough of an asshole to please her (and I don’t think you should, either.)
Sorry, I didn’t explain that well enough. What I meant was that girls “mistakenly” say “nice” when they really mean “passive”.
In other words, the girl is thinking something like “he never makes a move, he’s always saying ‘whatever you want’ when we figure out where to go, he’s so quiet, etc etc he’s just too ‘nice’”.
I didn’t mean that women were purposely using “nice” as some sort of code. (though I’m sure there are some on both sides who play goofy headgames like that).
Guin, that’s not what this is about. Emofkuniv is not the one saying he’s a “nice guy” (even though he is), this is what the girlie said to him. It’s not a case of him trying to blow his own trumpet, he was just asking for advice on why girlies say “you’re a nice guy” and whether being a “nice guy” is a bad thing.
Tamex, he’s not doing it cos you aint got a nob. He extends the same degree of courtousy to everyone regardless of thier gender, but obviously there are some things one hetrosexual male cannot do for another without getting a funny look. Society’s distinctions, not his.
quote:
Originally posted by CanvasShoes
Most women do NOT want a guy who’s so meek and mousy that he can’t even work up enough nerve to say hello.
Dave: Well, I’ll grant you that you’re probably right about most women not being interested in those guys. But, I consider that, as you say, “her prob”, not his. Many men are shy, initially, but still capable of being entertaining, witty, and maybe even dashing, once they know someone. Does that make them worthless?
Not at all. All it means is that women are going to choose what is attractive to them. Some women are going to be attracted to a quieter man. This doesn’t mean that the women who are more attracted to the more confident men are making a statement about his worth.
quote:
Or has enough belief and pride in himself that if some hot babe “blows him off” he can’t say “oh well, her prob not mine”.
From where I sit, that’s not self-confidence; that’s arrogance. If that’s your taste, go for it. But, if a guy isn’t upset about being “blown off” by a hot babe, he wasn’t genuinely interested in her, anway.
Hmmm. Well, not being a guy, maybe I mispoke. I guess I kind of liken it to when I get blown off by a guy that I was attracted to. Sure it’s a momentary ego blow. But it’s not as if it means anything about YOU. It’s that you weren’t a match for that person. So that’s what I meant by then going “oh well it’s their prob, not mine”. Making it yours would be to brood over why you weren’t “good enough” for some person that you didn’t even know.
quote:
Further, it’s not exactly as if merely being female imbues us with some sort of magic that inures us to feeling shy and nervous about “making the move” also.
I don’t know you very well, yet, but I just have to call you, on this one. That’s really playing the double standard for all it’s worth. It’s okay to excuse women from making the first move, on the basis of shyness, but it’s not okay for the man?
LOL, that’s okay, you can call me on anything you like!! I’m pretty reasonable. And as to the answer. No, I think you misunderstood what I meant.
Men who are shy frequently play the “but I’m shy and why should I get penalized for it?” card. What I meant was that it seems that many times, when they are discussing this problem, that they have the attitude of “well, because I’m shy, I should not only NOT have to put myself out there, or change in any way in order to Make myself more confident and able to approach women, but I should get ‘special treatment’ and women should be approaching me, because I can’t”.
Not all shy men of course, and it just seems this way when this subject comes up.
An example, the shy, shy man is sitting there looking at a woman wishing he had the guts to talk to her. Then he gets frustrated because another, more confident man asks her to dance and she says yes. In this instance he gets unhappy and/or frustrated and grumps something like “it’s not fair, the ‘bad boys’ always get the girls, why wouldn’t she look at ME”???
Ummmm, maybe because “she” is JUST as shy as you are? It’s okay for YOU (collective you) to be shy, and it’s okay for HER to be shy too. It’s not HER job to “osmose” through ESP that you’re shy and that she should somehow “make it safe” for you to approach.
I hope that made sense? More I hope it helped you understand a little of what women think while we’re “out there” in dateland.
As a girl, do I find nice men off-putting? No. I like nice men. Are bad boys exciting? No. Bad boys are bad and they spend a lot of time being bad. I feel I deserve a man’s nice attention. I learned some years ago that if a man said he wasn’t good enough for me and I deserved someone better, he was setting the scene to do something not-very-nice.
I don’t understand why someone would prefer mean to nice.
Women like you make life hell for guys like me.
NO! We are NOT implying you have some sort of handicap! Geez!
NO! We do NOT have similar “old-fashioned” attitudes when it comes to other things! Quit assuming!
You know why we do it? Not because we think you need the help, but because we think you deserve to be treated nicely. We’re being nice for no other reason than to be nice. If some person can’t open a door because they have too much stuff in their hands, helping them out is a moral obligation. There is no obligation to open a door an unencumbered date, and that’s exactly what makes it special.
Women get treated like crap in most societies and yet when a guy tries to do some little things to improve that situation, we get shit on for it. The nerve…
As for me, my girl likes me because I’m nice in public and a bad-boy in the sack. I think that’s a good balance (and, regarding the OP, I think being too nice in bed may have been the problem.)
I like the “courting” type treatment SNenc. But not all girls who find it odd, or not to their liking mean it in that severe a way. I don’t think the poster did either.
Some people just have a really, really modern way of looking at things.
I got to thinking some more about what Dave says here.
First, I wanted to reiterate that my statement to which he is replying was NOT saying it’s okay for the woman not to make the first move, but not the man.
Anyway. I was thinking some more about it and I realized that whatever I was saying aside, a double standard regarding men making the first move DOES exist.
Women are as bound by this as men. So it’s not something we’re doing by way of saying “if you’re ‘man’ enough you’ll come over here”.
I guess I am a good example of this. Maybe it’s my age, in my generation it wasn’t considered very lady-like or feminine to “chase boys”. You let them make all the moves. Or you got a reputation. But I won’t ask a man to dance (unless I know him). Nor will I make the first move.
What’s really stupid, or maybe even ironic, is that I’m not all that shy. I mean, I’m a University teacher for crying out loud. And I teach dance and PE, which means I’m a bit of a goofball, and I yell out moves etc.
I’ve also taught dances at charity events with around 300 people and head up a dance team that performs at local events. So it’s not like I’m some sort of wallflower.
But when it comes to men? Well, let me put it this way, Luke can still make me blush, and we’ve been both friends and lovers over the last 7 years. I’m shy. VERY shy around the opposite sex.
So, if I’m sitting there in the coffee shop, or at the edge of the dance floor, you can BET I’m not going to be making the first moves. And it’s not because I feel like it’s okay for me to be shy but not the guy.
It’s because I’m JUST as shy as he is, and it’s agonizing to be that nervous (yeah, one would THINK people like us would have gotten over this in HS huh?). I’m not positive, but I’m pretty sure that’s the way most shy people (men or women) feel.
Now, another thing that Dave was talking about was the fact that (paraphrased) it wasn’t fair of women to not realize that a man could be “witty, fun, exciting etc” even if they don’t know it from how shy he is at first.
Sorry, that was my fault, should have made it more clear. What I was talking about in that part of my post was NOT the initial meeting between two people (of COURSE it’s fair to at least get to know the person before deciding whether you want to pursue it), but of what the woman was thinking after she HAD gotten to know the man and realized that he just wasn’t a match for her.
Okay. Maybe we were thinking of different scenarios. We haven’t been very specific about whether we’re talking about seeing someone across the dance floor, or dealing with someone we’re more familiar with. But, IMO, if a guy doesn’t ever brood over being dissed or dumped, he’s not deep enough to get the tops of your shoes wet when you step on him.
Where’s Yorick? I feel the need to soliloquize
Well, that guy definitely deserves a dopeslap. I’d never recommend special treatment for shy guys (or gals). That’s just fantasizing. Which is okay, in itself, but shouldn’t be expected in real life. But, if those (we) shy guys hadn’t grown up seeing the shallow, arrogant guys getting all the hot chicks who wouldn’t even look at them (us), it would probably be different. I think most shy guys, though, don’t expect special advantages or treatment. And, when they’re moaning, it’s not “why don’t I get special treatment”, it’s “why do I have to be the shy guy?” JMO
I should probably mention that, while I am shy, I’m not that shy. I have approached, and probably will continue to approach (when I’m free to), women I fully expect to “shoot me down”. And, sooner or later, one will be as brutally vicious about it as the really shy guys expect, and then I’ll go brood about it, for a while.
Where’s that skull?
Got under your skin, huh? It’s nice that someone still takes me seriously, once in a while.
Yes, that’s exactly the sort of thing I was talking about (albeit vaguely…good for you for figuring it out!). It’s actually a hard thing for many people to see, because it’s just part of the background, all the time. And, many women just brush it aside as more whining from “the losers”, if a man brings it up. And, it’s often the same women who (no offence to any previous posters) get in a snit over things like men being chivalrous. Because, “that’s treating us differently/unfairly/unequally”. Sure, it is. But, SNenc already addressed that extremely well. (Bravo, dude!)
But, if you really want to be equals, let’s see you ladies take on an equal share of the risk of humiliation. You talk a good game, when it comes to salaries, job opportunities, child-rearing, etc. But, when the rubber meets the road, that’s a different story. It’s still all on us, 99.9% of the time. And, no one gets in a snit about that, do they? 
Holy COW!! There’s so much to answer!!
GMTA eh? As soon as “rang off” last night, it hit me. "OH, he’s talking about people that have known each other for awhile, and I meant meetings for the first time. As to whether he broods, yes, that’s normal. All people are going to feel that it’s personal from time to time, maybe a little, maybe a lot.
The thing about the dating game that you have to keep in mind is that it ISN’T personal. Yes, it hurts to be rejected. But what someone else is saying when they “reject” you is not “this guy/girl isn’t good enough” but this person’s “shoe doesn’t fit my foot” so to speak, (okay, not always, I am aware that there are bitches and jerks out there that like to make themselves feel better by putting others down).
Nothing wrong with bemoaning that you don’t want to be that “shy guy” but a lot of we women have heard the “nice guy whine” from too many men. Hence, many of us tend to be proactive as soon as we get even a hint of the “nice guy” vibe. Most of us can get past that and at least get to know the person, but if it’s TOO much, there’s always the possibility that we’ll pass on it.
I don’t know that I can help in your search, but I have a theory. That there are tons of jerks (romantically speaking), both male and female, in the world. And much smaller percentage of decent folk. So, the “nice people” have to swim through a huge sea of jerks to find their nice counterpart. They’re bound to hook up with a few “good actors” and bad boys/bimbos" on the way to their “nice mate”.
I do have one slight gripe/question though. Oftentimes “nice guys” complain about how “NO” girls find them attractive and they get “the brush off” all the time. I frequently find that these very same guys mean that no super model lookalikes find them attractive. There is such a thing as “market value”. As unromantic and “not very nice” as that sounds.
I’m a 44 year old, I’m divorced with 2 kids (one full-grown and one 12), I make an okay living, but I’m not super well off. I’m kind of cute, but I’m not Cindy Crawford. It’s not likely that I’m going to draw in a Donald Trump, or a 30 year old construction worker with 35" biceps.
If you’re an okay lookin’ guy, with a modest income, personality etc. Well? Be real, that’s all I’m saying.
Yes, you definitely gave me food for thought.
Yes, SNenc, did do a good job. As to how some women "just brush it aside as more whining from “the losers”. I sort of addressed that above, but one thing that I think happens (to all of us really, male or female) is that the more we “lose” the more we tend to behave in a defeated and “loser-y” way.
Have you ever noticed how if you are with someone that tons of the opposite sex suddenly start seeming as if they are attracted to you? And you are thinking “where were THEY when I was alone for 5 @$#@ years???”
It’s all in the attitude. The sucky thing is that it’s nearly impossible to pretend such a lighthearted happy attitude when you are lonely and miserable. Trust me, I know. You’re not alone.
LOL, HEY now!! I explained that part!! I, for one, don’t “snit” when guys don’t ask me to dance or whatever, I’m too shy to kick up a fuss. But then again, I’m usually the one on the dance floor teaching.
I have come to a realization in the past … ::counts:: almost ten months.
It is one thing to be a nice guy, chivalrous, etc. It is another to be passive.
Now, I am a nice-enough guy. I figure women have arms made for more than being tied back during sex or whatever. If it is more convenient for me to open a door than for someone else to, I do. I tend to walk on the outside because I’m left-handed, so I can gestate and hold stuff and things like that. I don’t scoot out chairs for much of anyone (which may change with the advent, whenver it may be, of spawn). I don’t think chivalrous is quite the word I’d use to describe myself (especially given such things as the fact that I dont’ see burping as anything offensive so long as it isn’t deliberately done in someone else’s ear without their permission.
However. When my darling wants me to be aggressive, as opposed to asking her what she wants, there is an incredibly useful tool we use. It is something easy to remember but not something you’d usually use in everyday banter. If we’re together and I start doing something she actually doesn’t want (as opposed to fighting it to feel controlled/dominated/whatever), she says it and I stop and ask her what she wants, and then we proceed with whatever we had been doing. Most people call it a safeword. It tells me that I can do stuff and not worry about her fighting me, and it tells her that she doesn’t have to worry because she’s actually more in control than I am.
Aggressive in bed (kinda), not so much otherwise. Plus I’m not afraid to argue or fight. I don’t just lay down and say “Yes dear” because having a partner who’s completely subservient would, while easing the load off me, be incredibly boring. Gotta spice up life somehow, and having the door held every time, I imagine, gets old quick.
Well, I’m sure, as a woman, your perspective is different than mine. And, I don’t doubt what you say. Can I just apologize, on behalf of the rest of us shy guys, and ask that you ladies not assume we’re all going to do that?
35"? I’m not sure my thighs are 35", and I don’t have skinny legs. But, you’re welcome to come pose nude on this bearskin rug, any time you want. (Notice I said rug, not doormat! I still gots my teeth.)
Yes, when I was younger, I noticed that. Not recently. And, would anyone want another person who was pretending to be happy? Sounds creepy, to me.
Yes, you did. I was just giving the male (or, at least, my) perspective a little more clearly.
GESTATE?? Umm…when are you due to give birth? I wanna be there, with my video camera! Oh! Gesture! Never mind.
I wouldn’t call that chivalrous, either. That’s just normal nice person behavior. I hold doors for people of both genders all the time. But, I don’t consider that chivalry. Actually, it’s almost impossible to be chivalrous, these days, because it requires that the woman “play along”. You can’t open a car door for someone who’s already standing on the sidewalk, looking at you like you’re an idiot. And, I don’t think I’ve ever held a chair for anyone. The only times it’s seemed appropriate, the maitre D beat me to it.
Today, I’m happily married, so I seek no sympathy from anyone. But I DID spend years as one of those single guys who’d see Cosmo cover stories like “Why Aren’t There Any Nice Men” and gag. And I got the “I Only Like You As a Friend” and “You’re Too Nice” speeches far more times than I’d like to admit. And in my worst moments of self-pity, sure, I’d find myself asking the same question the OP does. And like many hopelessly single guys, I’d find myself whining and moaning about how dishonest women were, how self-destructive they were (“O.J. Simpson is nailing a supermodel right now, Charles Manson gets a dozen marriage proposals in the mail every week… and I can’t get a date?!?”).
BUT… look, even in my worst moments, I was realistic enough to understand something: I was NOT a prize catch, for a lot of reasons. And to all my fellow “nice guys” out there: if you’re honest with yourself, you’ll admit you aren’t, either.
That is, NO woman ever said, “Astorian is perfect for me- if only he weren’t so nice! If only he’d be mean and rotten to me, I could really fall in love with him.” No, more likely, there were a lot of women thinking “Astorian is really nice, he’s just a little too _ for me.” And a lot of negative adjectives could be fairly and reasonably inserted in that blank: “dull,” “nerdy,” “overweight,” “neurotic.”
Any “nice guys” recognize themselves there? I don’t deny that women’s standards can be screwy, but I ask the nice guys to be honest with themselves. Is the problem REALLY that women think you’re too nice, or is the real problem that you’re nice BUT …"?
It often transcends looks and goes right into, “I don’t like her for __ reason, therefore she doesn’t count when it comes to girls who like me.” And then sometimes guys are just idiots. Case in point: I have a friend who is considered quite hot, brilliant, kind-hearted, witty, and basically possessed most of the traits men find attractive. She was in love with her ex, a boy well into college and self-professed loser (on the grounds that he didn’t know of any girls liking him and he had only ever dated/sexually been with one girl – her.) She really liked him, and he KNEW that she liked him, but he still adamantly refused that any girls liked him. His reasoning was that, “We broke up, which means we can’t go out again. And I’m not gonna even consider her if we can’t go out.” :rolleyes: :rolleyes: I had a similar situation with my then-ex, but it resulted in less of an idiotic way.
That should be “but it was resolved in less of an idiotic way”.
Whoops…