“I have here in my hand a list of 205—a list of names …”
Eve is right here, she posted in this very thread.
You’d assume wrong. First of all, no moderators have weighed in on whether women PMed them regarding this issue, so you have no idea what was or wasn’t said to moderators. As a poster I received many such PMs. At one point there was an entire internal loop about it.
Wasn’t the Giraffe Boards prompted by a bunch of women getting fed up over here? Or is it that they all decided to leave for the Giraffe boards when it became clear nothing here would change? My memory fails me.
Many? How many? From whom?
Look, if we are gonna change the rules, there is only one good reason to do so: because it is the right thing to do.
But you seem to want us to change the rules because you have a secret list.
I want to change the rules because it is the right thing to do.
Yes, I seem to remember that. I am not denying that at all. In fact, that is more or less what I said.
See, and that is why this is a bad thing to debate. Read my damn posts here. I have said over and over and over that we should change the rules because it is the right thing to do. But somehow all that you heard is that “it is not a problem here” which is odd, because I never said that, in fact I said the exact opposite several times.
My point is- we should change the rules because it is the right thing to do. Not because someone has a "secret list. " That is a terrible reason to do anything.
I dont think Tailgunner Joe had a secret list, I dont think Santa has a secret list- I dont think there is a secret list here either.
Let do the Right thing for the rRght reasons.
That’s not what you said in that point. You said that you wanted a list of posters who had stated X in format Y or you weren’t willing to concede there’s a problem.
If I said that, find that post. Well, you cant, because I never said that.
Here is my real post:
Sure, like Eve left due to misogyny… or not according to Eve herself. Right here. In this very thread.
Give me a list of 100 posters who left and their posts saying they left due to misogyny.
Look there are good solid reasons to reign in transphobic posts and misogyny without making up a mass exodus. When things like that are done it weakens your case, not make it stronger.
I have no idea what you’re talking about.
What part of …
… constitutes NOT asking for a list?
Modhat: Enough with List or no List. This is a hijack of the thread.
This is directed at everyone involved.
It has been brought to my attention via PM that I was completely wrong about this. Like, I couldn’t possibly be more wrong. I think I was confusing two different events. Sorry.
A post was merged into an existing topic: Mist and Murk in the MMP!
There was a long thread, mostly by women, about how women felt uncomfortable here due to the routine sexism of the board.
Every time somebody walks through this corridor people step on their foot. Some of them had no intention to step on the foot. Do you think the foot hurts any less?
Maybe something should be done about the design of the corridor, if the current setup causes lots of unintentional stepping on feet.
That’s a benefit to some. It’s a detriment to others.
If they don’t, then you won’t get that interaction. And, if they don’t, they’re then allowing potentially toxic information to be repeated on the boards, unchallenged.
So it does seem to me that you’re trying to force people to keep going over this, over and over and over again.
Seems to me that we could discuss public policy, health policy, and research related to transgender issues without discussing whether transgender people exist, or whether a specific person who identifies as transgender is to be allowed to do so (by random posters, that is; pointing out that a government is or is not allowing it is another sort of subject.)
@Thudlow_Boink, thanks for posting links to the old threads. I’ll read them. I don’t feel very well educated myself, on this subject.
Exactly. I feel like too many people are thinking in terms of extremes, either everything is on the table or we can’t talk about it all.
I would be very supportive of a rule that certain statements are accepted and not open for debate. IMO, the list would include the following, but I’d rather it be mostly based on the recommendations of any trans posters willing to contribute.
- Transgender people exist
- Being transgender is not a mental illness
- The term ‘woman’ includes trans women, and ‘man’ includes trans men.
- Deliberately misgendering a public person is being a jerk or threadshitting. Deliberately misgendering a poster is hate speech (i.e., a much shorter leash).
As you say, this still leaves plenty of room for discussion.
That would be a great solution if the corridor itself were somehow the problem. What we’re discussing is people who haven’t learned to walk properly yet, some of who may not even know it yet.
Every time I walk through this corridor my foot hurts. Maybe it’s the fact I’ve got gout that makes my foot hurt, and I shouldn’t expect all corridors in the world to be layered with cotton wool.
Not just one. There have been countless threads about the treatment of women on these boards. I just found one as recently as 2018. Anyone who believes this has not been an issue has not been paying attention.
I think trans people have been less likely to speak out because they feel even less safe than cis women. Statistically there is probably only a small number of posters who identify as trans.
If we care at all about “fighting ignorance” which is, I admit, questionable, it would behoove us to create an environment where actual trans people want to post. I don’t think people walking away for other reasons and people walking away due to hate speech are remotely comparable. And of course the entire point of mentioning that trans posters have walked away is to reinforce the fact that it is the right thing to do. I don’t think these are mutually exclusive concepts, I think one is predicated on the other.
This looks like a solid foundation to me. Though of course the 4th bullet has to be cleaned up a little. Make a mistake, no problem, let them know. Persist in the mistake, you’re being a jerk. Note, followed by warnings.