Note: this is purely a Cafe Society issue. It’s come up before, and has probably been handled a trifle inconsistently.
On the one hand, it’s fairly obvious that this is a forum for discussion of artists, writers, and creative talents. After an individual has died, a discussion of his/her whole career is certainly in order: and such discussion includes the negatives as well as the positives, however harsh. We need to be polite to each other in our discussions, but we do not need to be polite to the artists/creative talents whose careers or works we are discussing, whether they are living or dead.
On the other hand, when news comes of the death of some creative person, we usually have a “funeral” thread: not a critique of the person’s life or work, but simply mourning the loss. It seems to me that such threads are not about the artist’s work, but an expression of our sorrow that there will be no more. Logically, we should avoid condemnations or harsh criticisms in a “funeral” thread: that’s not what the thread is about. And, it’s easily seen as thread-shitting.
On the other hand, we’re not actually mourners (it’s not like the deceased movie star was a close relative, for instance.) Our sorrow is about not having future creative work from someone whose past work we have enjoyed. So, shouldn’t harsh criticisms be allows?
I admit that there has been some inconsistency in how we’ve handled this in the past. So, I open this for discussion. Would y’all like a Rule that differentiates between “funeral” threads and simply critiques of a deceased artist?
The advantage of a Rule (or, at least, a Guideline) would be that we would have more consistency in future in how moderators handle it.
I’d say “No.” I don’t think the critical comments in the threads about Johnny Hart or Kurt Vonnegut were derailing either one. There’s no reason “He was my favorite author,” posts can’t exist alongside, “He was over-rated and not very talented.” Besides, this board is ultimatly supposed to be about debating, and what’s there to debate in a funeral thread? “He’s not really dead?”
To paraphrase Giraffe from the recreational outrage thread:
One of the best things about this place is that if you post something stupid, someone will call you on it and possibly mock you in an entertaining fashion. Rather than using the rules and mods to counter posts and posters we don’t like, we should use good old fashioned debate and verbal abuse. Cite.
I hope that the people who act in such a manner realize that their behavior simply makes them look like a jackass. They would not (in theory) attend the memorial service of someone they hated to say, “I did not like so-and-so” and should refrain from doing so here.
It should not be a blanket rule, though it might be apt of thread starters to either say “yes, criticism is allowed” or “no criticisms please, let us just mourn the loss.” And then the mods know which field they are playing on.
No. Who decides which thread is a “funeral thread” and which is a regular thread? If a thread starts within X period of time after the artist’s death, does it automatically become a “funeral thread”?
These threads aren’t analogous to online mourning sites for close friends and family.
If you’re allowed only to praise the deceased in a “funeral thread,” will there be a separate type of thread reserved for criticizing the deceased? How do you identify which is which? Will we have rules for thread titles so people can identify which are which?
I’d say “yes” to a guideline rather than a hard and fast rule. De mortuis nil nisi bonum and all that, but I also think that there’s perhaps a separate place for both mourning threads and critical appraisals.
Just to take Johnny Hart as a recent example, the consensus is that his work ranged from good to bad, but crapping on his later stuff in a eugoogoly seems in rather poor taste. Perhaps in cases like that it would be better to have two threads, one mourning the man, the other critically appraising his work.
It probably ought to come under the “don’t be a jerk” rule: there are performers whose work I haven’t appreciated who have died, but I wouldn’t come and start lambasting them in a thread out of simple good manners and respect.
Perhaps a guideline might simply serve as a reminder not to be a jerk; that there’s a time and place for mourning the loss of a creative talent, and a time and place for incisive analysis, and the two don’t always coincide. It would also serve to discourage the genuine jerks - not many of them here, but there are occasionally one or two - who do delight in turning up at a wake just to piss in the punchbowl.
Apologies if this is rambling and unfocussed; I haven’t had my coffee yet.
I’m not sure one can clearly distinguish between a “funeral” thread and a “discussion of the artist’s entire carreer”. One can naturally morph into the other, and versa-vice. A person might certainly choose to “say nothing but good of the dead”, but I don’t think that should be a rule. And besides, even those who do say nothing but good of the dead will often, to use another cliche, damn with faint praise. If I come into an obituary thread and say “Well, um, he sometimes wore nice neckties, and he almost never kicked puppies”, it’s pretty clear what my opinion of that person was.
CS is the forum for discussing a person’s works, so it’s not right to stifle that discussion, but I can see the desire of people to have a thread mourning their passing without having to spend you time defending the guy’s life.
Would a criticism free funeral thread be more appropriate in MPSIMS?
I agree there should be room for criticism of an artist’s work in a funeral thread. As long as it’s clear you’re criticizing his works and not the artist as a person. For example (and I’m using a living person as an illustration):
**Permissible: Abe Vigoda was a one note actor who will only be remembered for playing Phillip Fish.
Not permissible: Abe Vigoda was a puppy drowner.
**
I hope that common good sense and manners would govern what a person posts.
As some of you know, I am and always will be a total free speech advocate. If someone wants to say something negative about a celebrity who has passed on, they should be free to do so (as I did when Anna Nicole Smith died). And those who disagree with that person’s viewpoint are equally free to say that as well. I will always believe in my fellow Dopers’ ability to police their own behavior and (for the most part) to keep things from getting out of hand.
Good guideline, cochrane–as long as it remains a guideline and not another rule.
And, BTW, Abe Vigoda was also terrific in The Godfather !
