Women have ‘to do’ lists with 45 items. A man’s list would stop at eight. We have a finer sense of entropy and less nesting instinct. I like it when a woman asks me out…thrilling! Tell me again why we are supposed to pick up the check?
As a woman I feel compelled to stand up for my gender and say " HELL YES we have to do EVERYTHING ourselves!! " However the reality is often we choose to do it ourselves; if we are in the position to choose that is.
For any woman out there on her own with or without kids, of course it’s obvious that they do everything on their own, as would any man… but when given the choice… I choose to do it myself.
Alot of the times my husband simply doesn’t have a clue, he’d never think to register my daughter for dance classes or to plan a birthday party. Sometimes his clothes don’t even match!!! So I have chosen to be responsible for those things. He’d help if I asked, but I don’t ask. Why because I want it my way!
Sure there are thing I simply do not do like take out the garbage,shovel the driveway and clean up shit after the dogs…those are HIS jobs! He also does all the housework if he’s home…but when it comes to making a decision…well I usually get my way!
So in the defense of the men out there…tell them what to do!! Some of them actually want to help but we women have taken the responsibility for so long that they don’t even know what they are expected to do.
It’s not always easier to do it yourself, deligate some of the responsibilities…hey you might even find he likes to help out!!
*****god i hope my hubby doesn’t see this!!!
Pitbulldawg is so funny–guess I know why He sleeps in the doghouse–bet those fleas itch! 
Seriously, I do think many men still expect women to shoulder not only the 1950s traditional role of housewife-mother and shoulder a full time career as well. I’ll agree that women put up with this crap all too often. But you’ve really proved my point by saying that it was the woman’s fault if things weren’t equitable because she didn’t speak up and make this man do his part. So now, she has to take the initiative to start the relationship, pick up the check half the time at least (while STILL generally making less money!), to have a full time career, take the major responsibility for homework and parenting AND assign duties so they are fairly apportioned and then police the work??? Decent men (and there are plenty, thank the Good Lord!) take on their responsibilities without having to be begged, nagged, manipulated, or shamed! If they don’t know what to do they even initiate discussions on how to split things reasonably!
I can relate to Melin very well–sometimes you end up putting up with this stuff because you really love the guy and it just is too damn hard to constantly try to make someone even realize the need to do simple things (like buy Christmas gifts for his mom or remember the kid’s birthday). You can’t even make some men realize that “Hey, if my wife is going out of town, gee, maybe I’d better stay in to look after my own kids”
Sometimes, you just have to swallow your anger in order to make sure someone innocent doesn’t get hurt. My daughter has had several birthdays where her daddy “forgot” to call her or buy her a gift. She was hurt–and if we had still been married I would have made sure that a gift came from him just to spare her feelings.
Of course, the answer always is to pick a better guy–Dr. Laura said so and we all know she’s ALWAYS right, of course! (That was tongue-in-cheek in case you didn’t get it!)
Which means a smart woman won’t do all (notice this did not say any) of the pursuing during courtship because if the guy can’t even take at least half the responsibility for seeking out a mate, he probably won’t have enough initiative to be a responsible partner and do his share during a marriage!
I have been known to whine…especially after a night out drinking. Everybody whines…it is just a fact of life.
In my past few relationships, all long-term, I personally feel it was mostly 50/50 in who settled conflicts, kept the fire going strong in the relationship, getting the daily “chores” completed, and all the other requirements in maintaining a healthy relationship. Well except for my first girlfriend cause I really had little clue what I was doing, what I wanted, and where I was going.
I have encountered many barriers to success in the dating scene today. It is admittedly, partly because I have not put forth enough effort to gain experience and learn from my mistakes. Perhaps someday I will.
I still have just as much a right to whine just like anybody else. Isnt it good to show one’s feelings??? hehe
Anyway, I am considered a nice guy more by women than men whether that matters or not.
Though I consider myself “self-admittedly” nice too.
The thing about being a nice guy is that it means something different to every person depending on what that persons viewpoint is. The phrase “nice guy” has little meaning nowadays cause it is so vague.
Personally I think most ladies think being a nice guy is:
- treating a woman delicately
- being respectful and virtuous
- a personality excluding anything that is
offensive or unpleasant - one with charm who is pleasing to talk to
Most men think of being nice as:
- being weak
- being vulnerable
- being accommodating
At first glance, these are actually kind of similar. The main difference is that, IMHO, a women will lose respect for a man who is a “nice guy” in the guy’s view, but will respect the man who is “nice guy” according to a woman’s view. Perhaps that is why a few ladies will be quick to be judgmental on the men to are self-admitted nice guys. And come on, I would rather have a long-term relationship instead of a short-term relationship. I dont just wanna get laid.
But guys do whine a lot, both genders do and both have reasons that are quite questionable at times.
Jimmy Swaggart was the only guy I heard of who whined cause he got laid!!! If you want a reason to celebrate girl power, that hypocrite is a better reason to stand united than the “nice guys” you have this conflict with.
Even with that story I just wrote I missed one important point. I think guys and ladies both agree that the males should still be the aggressive ones. I cant see it ever changing…it was supposed to in the 90’s but I dont it happened or will ever happen.
oh, dear, dr. jaws, i don’t think you get it yet. i can see that you consider what you are saying to be reasonable & universal; however, it isn’t a matter of whether you think the woman is still expected to take responsibility for getting things done. in those situations where that is true (& admittedly there are many such), it’s true because she has taken that responsibility on herself. the real responsibility is to take care of whatever bothers you: gifts, ballet classes, painting the house. i can’t see why someone who isn’t bothered by something should be compelled to take care of it, or even notice it, fercrienoutloud.
i’m short. i can’t see the top of the refrigerator. i never–i repeat, never–clean up there & yet my life is rich & full. if i wanted it cleaned, would i ask someone taller to do is? not unless i broke both legs & became suddenly incapable of getting on a stepstool. would i expect that taller person to do the job w/out my asking even tho s/he could see up there? not unless it actually bothered him/her.
if i were married to some reasonably handyandy kinda guy & i noticed a kitchen cabinet door was loose, would i expect my spouse to fix it even tho he never goes into the kitchen & would have no way of knowing about it? hell, no. i’d get a screwdriver & fix it myself because i’m the only one it bothers.
as for complaining that women still do the lion’s share of piddly household chores plus hold down jobs plus do all the kid care, if you don’t like the situation, you should speak up. does that put the responsibility back on you? damn right it does, because you are the only one who is bothered by the situation.
“put up with this crap”? are you better off w/ him or w/out him? pretty simple question, maybe not so simple an answer. but life is about tradeoffs. if the tradeoff makes it worthwhile, accept it & pipe down w/ the sniveling. if it’s less than ‘good for you’, speak up, state what you need, & make sure it gets better–but also quit the sniveling. if you can’t take it, don’t; get out.
those are the only valid choices. if you choose instead to only whine & feel put upon, you’re setting up yourself for continued failure. make a realistic choice.
just in case you think i’m only blowing smoke & know not whereof i speak, here’s my story. my ex was a drunk. i knew him from high school, knew he drank, but didn’t understand what alcoholism was. by the time i realized what it was all about, i was pregnant & then pregnant again. i knew i would never get child support from him if we separated, so i decided (read ‘chose’) to stick it out until i could get the kids into school & me back to work.
later, when i finally got in touch w/ all the family to explain we were splitting up (he actually initiated it at that point because he had acquired a girlfriend), they were all totally stunned. he took care of the money (usually). i took care of the kids & the house. we were civil to each other in public. no one knew we had any problems. i never complained to anyone. i never felt martyred. we had a tacit deal & each kept our side of the bargain, more or less.
did i shoulder a disproportionate amount of kid care, home care, finances care? shit, we saw him no more than 2-3 days at a time every 6 wks or so for years. but i got enough out of the deal to make it worthwhile & shut the fuck up about other aspects of our relationship.
it’s lovely to have some guy w/ a touchyfeely nature who wants to take care of you (not exactly what i would look for, but it sounds good) but i don’t expect anyone to do anything for me. it’s not a matter of the man does this & the woman does that. if it gets in your craw, spit it out; but don’t expect someone else to perform the heimlich on you when you’re not obviously choking.
as for paying or initiating a relationship, it’s part & parcel of the same thing. if you proposed the outing, why wouldn’t it be up to you to pay? you make less? go someplace less fancy. simple enough. you enjoy his company, i presume, rather than want to impress him with an expensive restaurant.
but your last paragraph was right on target. plan ahead.
&, eureka, you sound like a sweet guy. keep on doin’ whatever yer doin’.
angkins, sounds like you understand it all just fine.
cleosia, honey, just get out the paint & do the damn heat covers already. i’d come over & help & we’d have a fine time, but it’s a bit of a trek from arizona.
disclaimer: obviously, a lot of this does not apply to women who have been abandoned, have a passel of kids, no education, no job, no choice. however, there are a lot of places for them to go for help. & yes, i know all about that situation, too, so don’t gimme any shit about blue skying on that front.
also, don’t sneer that i sound like i’m trying to portray myself as some wonderwoman. far from it. this is just a realistic way of looking at life. ya do what ya gotta do. it’s called taking responsibility for your own life. that way lies peace.
Stay with me folks, I’m certain I’m driving towards a conclusion here, but I refuse to stop and ask for directions. . . . . Baloo
Alphagene said:
So that’s my problem!?
Hmmmm…lot of women complaining here…some rightfully so, some without a reason. I’m not going to referance specific examples of the posts that I though were in error, because I don’t know the whole story…let me just relate how my relationship works.
I lived on my own for 8 years from 19-27. I had my own apartment, cooked for myself, did my own laundry, ironed my clothes every morning, cleaned up my place, the whole bit. Without any problems. I am now engaged, and living with my fiance’. At times, we’ll argue about the separation of household “duties”…Why don’t I do the laundry anymore?..Because when I did laundry on my own, I had whites and darks…Whites in hot water, darks in cold, then everything went into the dryer on “regular”…simple…worked for me for years. Fiance’ moves in, and now I have “delicats”(sp), and “knits” some things can be dried, some have to be hung up. I have no idea which of her clothes require this special treatment…so I don’t do the laundry…I’ll help fold and put away, but she does the washing.
Why don’t I cook dinner?..it’s not because I can’t…I cook very well, actually taught her how to cook. But she gets home about an hour and a half before I do. So most nights, she makes dinner and has it ready for me…do I ask her to?..Nope, but it’s nice to have it done. When I cook, I clean the pots and pans right after I use them…throw them in the dishwasher, and after the meal, put the plates in, and run it. Will it always be full?..No, but this way I don’t run out of forks waiting to get a full load. She doesn’t like to do that…so she’s in charge of the kitchen cleanup. I don’t even know where everything is in there.
As for some of the other things that cause contention…well, have you thought that maybe the reason he doesn’t do them is because they’re not important to him ?
It’s not enought that you think it’s important, you both have to see the importance of it. I’ll use the birthday party as an example…(No personal slight to you Melin)…I’d probably be the same way. Why?..Because I never had a birthday party when I was a kid, and I grew up fine. I wouldn’t think of that chore as a neccessary one. So I wouldn’t do it very well, if at all. Same with dance lessons, and some of the other things mentioned. Unless we agree (and by that I don’t mean that he throws up his hands ans says “yes dear”) then ultimatly, it will cause problems. He’ll forget about it, or not do it the way you want. Conversly, you may not see the need for that $100 power saw, but he knows that it makes life a lot easier on doing some of those household chores. Because you may not know all the details about what he’s doing, or how hard it would be with a hand saw, you harbor resentment that he spent that much money, and this will manifest later in some way.(can you tell that I had an argument like that?)
I don’t think there is a solution, except that both parties in a relationship need to realize that they come from different upbringings…that what is very important to one partner, may not be to the other. Using PitBull as an example, he personally has a value that he doesn’t care if his dishes pile up and he lives like a slob…that’s probably the way he was brought up. So he resents the fact that his “woman”(?) likes to live in a clean, sanitary place.
Sorry to ramble, just my thoughts…
This kind of stuff cracks me up. I assume, Atrael, that you are a reasonably intelligent man. At least, you come through that way with your writing. But listen to what you say! You don’t do laundry because despite your obvious intelligence, you can’t manage to learn what sorts of clothes are delicate and what aren’t?!? I just get a kick out of people who use such excuses - the man who won’t do dishes, for example, because his wife does them “so much better than I can.” Like it takes a rocket scientist to learn how to do laundry, or wash dishes, or pick up a mess.
I propose that the reason you don’t do laundry is because you don’t want to learn what’s delicate and what’s not. Fine, that’s valid. But get the reason straight - you don’t want to take the time to figure it out, so you leave it to your wife. I do that sometimes. I don’t want to figure out how to change the burnt out taillight in my car, so I let my SO do it. I could do it if I had to, but I don’t.
I think it’s a sign of respect to take the time to learn how to do things differently than you may have done them by yourself. For example, my SO is allergic to seafood. I didn’t stop cooking for him when I found this out - I modified my recipes so I used fish instead of seafood. He likes the garage to be clean. OK, I modified my behavior to pick things up in the garage a little more. He’s slightly allergic to my cats. When he moved in with me, I made an effort to vacuum the furniture and wash the sheets a little more often. I also keep the bedroom door closed so the cats don’t lay on our bed.
I think the root of a lot of the bitching that women do is that we make these modifications automatically. We do it as a sign of love and respect. However, most men in my experience tend to balk at doing the same. If it’s not done their way, they use the “well, if you need something special done, do it yourself.” I shudder to think of what the world would be like if all the women started using the same line.
Athena–
While normally, I don’t argue with a goddess, this time I feel I must.
Why doesn’t you logic apply to both parties there?..Sure, I could figure out what is delicate, and what is knit…and put in the fabric softener, and all the other things that go along with laundry. Or she can do like I do, and buy clothes that don’t need special attention. Maybe you don’t buy much clothing for men, but it’s possible to get the same time of “special care” clothing for us. But I aviod it because I like my laundry simple…not something that I have to think about. She could do the same…if she wanted. So which of us should bend?..Who should give in?..I’ll do the laundry if I don’t have to sort through her things…because as dumb as it makes me feel, I really don’t understand all the different fabrics, and why I can’t throw her jeans in the dryer along with mine. Is there a reason?..Are her levis made out of something different than mine?..(shrug)…beats me…I personally feel that it’s becasue that’s the way her mother always did it, she does it the same way. Where I read the back of the box the first time I did my own laundry.
Laudry disputes may also arise because women have always had different materials to wash…most guys don’t…I work on computer systems all day long…and my fiance’ is an intelligant woman…but she couldn’t figure out how to set up our ISP at home if it killed her. Because that’s not the knowledge base she has. Don’t assume that because you do something easily out of habit and long expiriance, that it’s easy, or that I’m lazy for not knowing how.
Maybe I’m missing the modifications that she does “automaticaly” for me…it’s possible that I’m just another insensitive guy. Or maybe some women make things more complicated than they really have to be.
I forget where I read this, but I saw someplace that men tend to think in straight lines, while women tend to think in circles.
Hehehehee… Atrael, you prove my point! Apparantly, figuring out how to do laundry is on par with setting up an ISP. Yeah. I buy that.
All I’m saying, Atrael, is that you don’t do laundry NOT because it’s too difficult for you (I appear to have more confidence in your intelligence than you do!) but because you flat out don’t want to take the time to figure out how to sort her clothes. It’s not rocket science. It’s not hard at all. You just don’t want to take the time to do it.
The problem with women is that they want to split up the NET work and nto the GROSS work. For example, the man (because he is the man) is expected to handle the finances fix the cars, do yard work, repair the house, settle disputes with credit card companies, place the insurance, do the driving, etc. Then, after all of this is allotted to him, the woman wants to split the “housework 50/50.”
Can the man learn to separate the laundry? Sure. Wil lthe woman learn how to rewire the lightswitch or change the oil?..very rarely.
Ladies, there is more to running a household than keeping it clean. Just because you don’t value something or don’t know how to do it does not mean it is not part of the “chores.”
[rant off]
From Special:
“dear, dr. jaws, i don’t think you get it yet. i can see that you consider what you are saying to be reasonable universal; however, it isn’t a matter of whether you think the woman is still expected to take responsibility for getting things done. in those situations where that is true (& admittedly there are many such), it’s true because she has taken that responsibility on herself. the real responsibility is to take care of whatever bothers you: gifts, ballet classes, painting the house. i can’t see why someone who isn’t bothered by something should be compelled to take care of it, or even notice it, fercrienoutloud.”
Ms Special–I don’t think YOU get it! I’ve been very careful to exclude men who actually take responsibility from this rant. I’m ranting about men who want to marry mommy. And, interestingly enough, your story isn’t so different from mine–married at 21, primary breadwinner for most of that time, got tired of supporting an alcoholic who wouldn’t get a regular job, wouldn’t do ANYTHING around the house (washed the dishes 2x in 6 years of marriage and then he left the dirty pots hidden in the oven), he finally had a job for a couple of years, then quit when the baby was 6 weeks old to be “self-employed” which meant spending money like a millionaire while he spent the day drinking coffee at the local restaurant. I left–finally!–a year later. I have supported myself my entire adult life, rarely ask for help from anyone, and pay my own way. Yes, I own tools and use them. Duh! Who doesn’t?
To reiterate: Most men (and women) are nice, decent people who take responsibility for themselves and their families. There are those, however, who chose to leech off others and can all kind of excuses to do so. These people can be charming and get away with it for years. They are scum.
Some people have a lessor form of this–they are lazy and manipulative. Living with them means you will have to constantly battle to make sure you are not being used, which is exhausting. It’s your choice, sure. What idiot would think it wasn’t?
If I want to rant about people like that, why can’t I? If you want to be Superwoman and never complain, I don’t care. I’ll be the first to pat you on your back. Go, MS. Special! You are so wonderful! You never complain and you’ve been so special!
Athena–
Setting up your home ISP account is about 3 steps…you enter the phone number, and type in your username and password…now what is so difficult about that?..I think it’s easy…you again re-iterate that I don’t learn how to do the laundry out of some obscure “manly” reason. Not the case. I also can’t balance my checkbook…for the life of me…so before I met my fiance’, I didn’t write checks…paid for utilities at the bank when I deposited my check, and paid cash for everything else. She’s great at keeping track of the bills and balancing the accounts. Does that mean I should change the way I do things?..Because she’s good at it?..She’s an artist too…it’s easy for her to paint and draw…I can’t draw a crokked line without help. But it would be easy (and wrong) to assume that I’m lazy because I can’t learn how to do it. I can do lots of things that she can’t, does that mean I should think her lazy because she can’t take the time to figure them out?..Like re-wireing the lamp?..Or replacing a counter-top?..She’ll help me with those chores…(just like I help with laundry by putting the clothes away), but she can’t do it by herself, just like I can’t do her laundry by myself. I don’t think there is anything wrong with admitting your weakness’s, as long as you know what you can’t do, you’ll also know what you can.
When you enter a relationship, is it right to expect your partner to do more work for you?..I don’t think so. That’s the whole point here isn’t it?..That neither person in the relationship should burden the other party. I take care of most “physical” work around our place (and my mom’s and her mom’s) without complaint, because that’s what I’m good at…whe takes care of most “household” chores, because she likes them done a certain way. Like the man said, you can either ask me to do something, or tell me how you want it done…not both.
I have to agree with Atrael…women think things out in more abstract terms; we tend to pay greater attention to small details.
men access the situation and DO whatever they think they should do and often get to it and get it done; and sometimes the small details us women feel are important get pushed aside bt the men, not because they feel it isn’t valid but because they don’t see it as we do ( and that’s not meant to be a slur against men! )
Yeah I admit I’ve gotten pissed off and bitched at my SO for purchasing some gadget or whatever because he needs it…but I’ve made purchases he doesn’t understand either! And you know sometimes his “junk” IS usefull to me too!!
As for the whole laundry issue, I’m almost embarassed to say but my SO does most of the laundry because I keep turning things colours they just shouldn’t be!!
On the other hand I do most of the yard work…but we like it that way!!!
“men access the situation and DO whatever they think they should do and often get to it and get it done; and sometimes the small details us women feel are important get pushed aside bt the men”
Lady, you got that right. WE not only don’t see the detail, we don’t even know it is there to be not seen. And we DONT CARE about it. My SO complains about stuff that I didn’t even know existed. And once I find out that it does exist, I wonder why it matters to her.
I think the post above me says it all, ladies. Because we’re perfect! ;p
so you found a girl who thinks really deep thoughts. what’s so amazing about really deep thoughts? Tori Amos
dr. jaws, i go along w/ every word you just wrote as long as you can acknowledge that you can accept that “those, however, who chose to leech off others and can [use] all kind of excuses to do so” come in both sexes.
&, of course, silly goose, you can rant about it. it’s a free country. but you also gotta realize just ranting is counter productive.
&, again, i wanted to make the point that i never considered my behavior special (altho, boyoboy, am i ever special!). it was a tradeoff, practically a business decision, made in the kind of old-fashioned marriage where dad worked & mom only stayed home (which is where i never want to be again!).
as i suspect we may be arguing semantics rather than p.o.v., i want to say, ‘no offense’. (i’m not much for the pit, inyerface, atyerthroat thing. {smile})
Stay with me folks, I’m certain I’m driving towards a conclusion here, but I refuse to stop and ask for directions . . . Baloo
Special wrote:
dr. jaws, i go along w/ every word you just wrote as long as you can acknowledge that you can accept that “those, however, who chose to leech off others and can [use] all kind of excuses to do so” come in both sexes.
Of course, Ms. Special–I thought that was understood!
Now, can we be friends and go to a first name basis? Please, call me Smiling!
lol. what’s the rest of the line? ‘welcoming little fishes in’? spoken by the caterpiller on the 'shroom?