Does a spouse-rejecting parent have a right to see their grandchild?

Thisexcellent thread just validated to me that it is not acceptable for a loved one to openly criticize your partner, except in cases of possible abuse or criminality. In my case, the offending party is my mother, who has never accepted my wife and has never made it a secret to me that she does not like her and should not have to be nice to her. And when I tell her that such ‘honesty’ is not helpful, my mother just says “we’re Italian, we always say it like it is” and “she is just your wife, but I am your mother.”

This has been going on for 13 years now, and has cycled in between periods when I won’t have any contact with my mother, to periods of relative reconciliation which start out with my mother mostly behaving herself, but break down again when she slowly reverts back to her old behavior. Each time that we reconcile, it is because I have decided to give her another chance, thinking it will be better this time. I know that I am just a sucker for punishment, but part of me really wants to have a happy family, and I miss having my mother in my life. Perhaps that’s Italian… :slight_smile:

Anyway, my wife and I now have a 20 month old daughter, and my mother has yet to see her, partly because of another freeze that happened soon after she was born. Things thawed again, and we started discussing a visit, but now seem that they are on their way down.

I am seeing a therapist to sort out some depression problems arising from my family problems, among other things. One of the things my therapist has said (and is echoed by several friends that I have spoken to) is that it is not necessary for me to break off complete contact with my mother just because she is not accepting my wife, particularly since breaking off with my mother is making me unhappy. However, it is also not reasonable to expect my mother and wife to get along. So the solution is for me to have a separate relationship with my mother, and not to force either of them on the other. Of course in that relationship I also have the right to tell my mother not to speak about my wife if it cannot be nice things.

I am open to that idea, and so is my wife. It is not ideal of course, but might be a workable solution. The problem now is my daughter. My mother wants to see her granddaughter, but given our unpleasant history and my mother’s refusal to accept my wife, my wife feels my mother has forfeited that right. I tend to agree with my wife on this, as it seems to me that both parents need to agree on policies regarding the children. However, I was surprised that my therapist actually thinks that I should be able to take my daughter to see her grandmother, without my wife. I know that it is just one opinion, but I was sort of surprised to hear that from her. FWIW, my therapist is a woman in her 50s with children of her own.

In any case, I thought I would see what people here thought about the issue. Does my mother have a right to see her granddaughter while excluding my wife? I should add that there is no risk of any harm to the child as I imagine my mother will be crazy about her, her first grandchild. That said, I would not put it past my mother to (eventually) say bad things about my wife to my daughter, as she already has to other members of the family.

I’d think about finding a new therapist. Your current one seems to be a bit too opinionated about what she thinks you should or shouldn’t do.

I admit that I was surprised that she had an opinion on this, as this is actually the first time she really had an opinion on anything. In her defense, when I told her I didn’t agree, she backed down.

Although I am not paying you, I would love to know your opinion :slight_smile:

Well, it seems that she also had an opinion about the fact that you were cutting your mother out of your life.

I’m not sure what the right course of action should be in this case. Your mother sounds like a relatively bad person who probably needs to be cut off at the knees, quite frankly. She also needs to know that these exiles are her own doing, and not because your wife has “turned you against her”. I’d also be very careful about letting her near your child/children if you aren’t sure there will even be a relationship there down the road.

I think a critical question to ask is, “Can your mother be counted on to hold her tongue in the presence of your daughter?” I’m guessing the answer is “No.” Your daughter doesn’t need to hear Grandma bad-mouthing Mom.

Yeah, the therapist’s advice is wwwway too specific.

Good for you for standing up for your wife.

It’s entirely reasonable for you to tell your mother that she won’t be seeing the kid until she can prove to you that she will henceforth act like a big girl around your wife.

After 13 years, I’d probably cut her off permanently, frankly. But that’s me.

That.

To me the question is not whether your mother has the right to know her grand-daughter (she doesn’t), but that your daughter does have the right to know her relatives - so long as those relatives can behave like civilized human beings. If Grandma can’t behave, then your duty to protect your daughter trumps everything else.

Knowing that Grandma and Mom are rarely in the same half of the planet at the same time and don’t much like each other won’t hurt the bambina: hearing Grandma badmouth Mom will be hurtful and confusing.

Middlebro has had to answer “why is Uncle I so mean? :(” and “why does Grandma M say those strange things? :confused:” waaaaay too many times (the uncle is in the other side, the grandma is my mother). A child’s life is complicated enough without adding mean grownups to it.

I also would not take your daughter to meet your mother behind your wife’s back, especially if Granny will be badmouthing Mommy in front of her.

Your mother is old enough to suffer the consequences of her actions (and to stop using racial stereotypes as an excuse for her behaviour).

No one has a “right” to see their grandchild. What a preposterous notion. The predominant “rights” here, if anybody’s, are the kid’s.

That being said, you could go on a trial basis - but your mother has to know that there will be no badmouthing of the wife, the kid’s mother, in front of the kid. Ever. And you will leave if that happens. And be prepared to follow through.

If you think you can’t stand up to her at that point - and there’s no shame in that; of course mothers know how to push our buttons, they installed all of them - then cut her off.

I did. And I sometimes think the one thing that could have reconciled my mother to my life and my other half would have been kids - but that wasn’t happening.

ETA: Italian families are often like Indian families, so I empathize a lot. But the whole mother/wife thing is silly, too. She’s your mother, yes, but that’s your wife, the woman you have chosen to spend all of your adult life with. Does she say why she doesn’t like your wife?

I have always believed that when a man gets married his first loyalty from that moment on is to his wife. So I tend to favor cutting mom out of your life. This is just me, and I know that others may feel a different way, but to my it is 100% not ok for anyone to bad mouth the mother of my child.

Think about where this will lead. Grandma will be constantly taking swipes at your wife’s skills as a mother and undermining her authority with the child. Think about how much time you are going to spend being caught in the middle, trying to be the peacemaker and generally miserable because no matter what someone is going to be pissed of and unhappy. IMHO, the best thing to do is explain this to your mom and let her know that you will give her a call for the big events like birthdays and graduations but otherwise she is not going to have much of a role in this child’s life.

I am also rather curious to know what your mother is saying her issues with your wife are. What is her deal?

Nothing would make your mother happier, since that’s exactly what she’s wanted all along–all the good parts of having a relationship with you, but none of the annoying parts like having to treat the woman you love (and by extension you) with any sort of respect or courtesy. It would basically be rewarding and reinforcing her behavior, so I guess where you go from here depends on how you feel about encouraging such behavior in the future. Given the previous cut-offs, I’m guessing you don’t feel so great about that prospect.

I personally think it’s an absolutely shitty idea. Not only does it guarantee continued bad behavior in your mother, your wife would seem to find it hurtful and disrespectful to have her opinions on this disregarded, and it’s unfair to both your wife and your daughter to have a model that shows it’s okay to be disrespectful and unkind to Mommy.

My husband completely cut off his mother because of her refusal to accept me. I’m not the good Christian girl she wanted for her son, so there’s no way he and I could last (we’ve been together 25 years now), but she still could not be nice.

I’m not without sympathy for the grandmother in this. As a matter of fact, I tried many times to get my husband to have a relationship with his mom outside of our relationship, mostly because I did not want him to resent me later. He did try more than once, but it never lasted. It was her fault though. She just would not keep her opinions to herself.

I would tell Grandma that she has one shot. A relationship with the child is hers, but only until the first time she makes a negative remark about mom. I might even go so far as to make the visits supervised until such time as you believe she could be trusted. Maybe make her sign a piece of paper to really bring it home.

FWIW, my husband has expressed no regrets at all. His mother passed away in 2005 and I’ve yet to see him shed a single tear over her. I think it’s a shame, but it was her choice.

That’s my two cents. Good luck. These sort of situations are never much fun.

I’m sorry for your troubles. Like others have said, I would worry that your mother would trash your wife in front of your daughter. No child should have to hear that.

This is probably a non-starter, but is there any chance you could have your mother accompany you to a therapy session? It might be a suitable forum for you to convey to her how much pain she is causing you.

I understand how hard this is for you. I’m right now trying to determine how much of a relationship my soon-to-be child will have with my family (though not due to badmouthing or disliking my spouse but instead because of drug and alcohol abuse) and honestly I know I should just cut them off completely. It isn’t the first time I’ve felt like this and honestly we see them so rarely that all this would change is regular phone calls back and forth, but at the same time I don’t want my daughter to go through life not knowing her grandparents and having very little extended family. It is a difficult decision to make and we honestly haven’t determined anything at this point except that for sure the baby will never be left alone with them for any reason when they visit and that they would have to visit us instead of the other way around so we control the environment. I wish you luck no matter what decision you end up making.

I totally am. I have no sympathy for a parent that deliberately refuses to like a daughter or son-in-law, especially on the basis of religion (not that I’m saying that’s what the OP says). When I hear about people who skip their kids’ weddings because of religion I think that the kid should never see the parent again. Like it or not, you raised an adult, and you’ll have to suck it up and deal that they are making choices you don’t like.

I am heartless about this, having lived it from th POV of the kid.

I think your therapist is trying to help you avoid using your child as a pawn to control your mother’s behavior. Act right, you get to see the kid. Act wrong, you don’t.

I don’t think it’s as simple as just taking the sprog to Gramma’s without your wife. For one thing, you and your wife are a team and I think it adds credibility to Gramma’s assholery to leave Mommy out when Daddy and Kid go visiting Gramma. Shouldn’t parents present a unified front?

It sounds to me like your mother hasn’t quite grasped the concept that, once you’re married, your wife takes precedence over your mother. If I were the husband, every time my mother said, “Yes, but I am your mother,” I’d ask why then does that give her rank over my own wife and mother of my child(ren)? Since when are you sleeping with your mother and making and raising babies with her? You’re not. Your wife and child get the front seat now. She is their mother so treating her with disrespect in front of them doesn’t seem like a real healthy thing for your kid(s) to see. As a woman, I can’t think of any reason I’d want to show my children that it’s acceptable for someone else to treat me like shit, even my own MIL.

I think your mother has an obligation to the harmony of the family to keep her shitty opinion to herself. Her attitude toward your wife will be damaging to the children. Now, if you can’t play your mom’s game and be that forthright, open and honest with her about what a horrible position she’s putting you and your daughter in with her attitude that she doesn’t have to be nice to your wife for the good of the order, then my choice would be to keep cutting her off. That sucks for you, but my opinion is that life is too short and your children are too precious to allow a toxic relative to behave in such a way. Because you cannot control her behavior and she can’t see the toxicity in her behavior and thus, refuses to change just a little bit (jeez, just be polite and civil while your DW is around; is it really that difficult?), then I really don’t see how you have any choice. Obviously, you don’t want to give all your loyalty to your mom and make your wife and daughter take a back seat to her – they are your most important priorities.

I’m going to agree with CCL. And I have no sympathy for Grandma either. It is just plain wrong to work so hard to poison a marriage for no particular reason except that (I’m betting) no girl is good enough for her boy, and she wants to be first in her son’s life, and figures that a wife is competition who must be crushed. Or whatever it is.

“She is just your wife, but I am your mother”-- that is completely backwards. In this case, you might like to quote the Bible to her: Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

Personally I think that Grandma should not get to hang out with her grandbaby unless she can behave herself. Babies are pretty marvelous at getting grandparents to behave, actually.

My SIL’s parents were horrible to her about her marriage to my brother, but a baby helped a lot. These days even her dad is coming around to the idea that my brother might not be so bad, and he even kind of apologized for refusing to meet my parents when they traveled to the other side of the world to visit. (Though no one over there cares any more about babies, now that they’ve had 3 girls and nary a boy. So they’re still fairly awful.)

I had it the other way around - my wife disliked my mother - and avoided letting her see the kids - they where lucky if they saw them on christmas for an hour. (by the way - Itallian to)

Let your mum see the kid - but I would warn her that you have a 1 strike rule - if she bad mouths your wife to the kid then thats it. Thats what I would do now a days.

Half of your daughter’s DNA came from your wife. Hearing criticism about her mother is the same as criticizing her.

Is your mother’s love for her grandchild stronger than her hatred for your wife? Unless the answer is a clear and honest “yes,” I’d definitely supervise all visits. At the first hint of negativity about your wife from your mother, leave with the child.

Cutting out the mother would deprive the child of a grandmother. As a parent the child should come before your wife’s hurt feelings. It is a good thing for your child to know its grandmother and your kid will not be irreparably damaged by a stray remark disparaging your wife. Sometimes people do not get along, that is just life in the big city.Trying to change other people is a recipe for frustration. If having a relationship with your mother makes you happy and the only way you can do that is to not involve the wife, so be it.
I do not think making suggestions is out of line for a therapist as long as they do not try to push you into something that you do not want to do.