And here is Guin’s response, as I saw forthcoming. Perhaps you need a “what Catholicism isn’t” FAQ, so you don’t have to keep typing this stuff out.
You know, I’m gonna feel pretty safe saying they were both athiests. I’m not gonna find a cite, but I feel pretty sure that Stalin wouldn’t have spent all those years fighting the Orthodox church if he was part of it. Under communism, it’s all just ignorant superstition that stands in the way of the progressive forces and the ultimate victory of the proletariat. Perhaps he was raised that way.
He always cites Rev 18:4 on that one, without giving much explanation for how he draws that conclusion. The footnotes in my Harper Collins say that this is indeed supposed to refer to Rome, but of course the entire book is a code for some rebellion plotted against Rome back in the day, IIRC. So I presume that would be referring to Rome of the 2nd century or so, before the Roman Catholic Church was much of anything. (I hesitate to say it wasn’t there, since I suppose that it’s founding dates from whenever Peter arrived, and I’m not sure on the date of that.)
Cervaise (who has not yet reviewed Almost Famous ;)) wrote:
And getting off that thing is exactly what you should do. Every moral journey is a private affair. Just as you do not find your own consciousness in the head of another man, you will not find your own spirit in another man’s heart. Jesus taught that you will not find God by looking here and looking there. “The kingdom of God,” he said, “is within you.”
Vanilla wrote:
When I’ve learned to show that love in my whole life, my moral journey will be complete. God go with you.
Joe_Cool wrote:
I care nothing about refuting you, my friend. You have selected your measuring stick, and I mine. “For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.” — Jesus, Matthew 7:2
My trouble with His4ever is not that she is apparently fundamentalist, but in the way she swings her bible, like a crowbar at our heads. Cracking Scriptures like a whip, sending all of us down the primrose path to Hades, scarcely acknowlegding, the people with religious faith, on the SDMB.
H4E slings Molotov cocktails of Jack Chick without even noticing how many times we have Pitted him.
I can find a church across the way, that will preach hellfire and brimstone, if I was so inclined to hear it. Every now and then even I think about going back to church, but quite frequently i have decided against it, for reasons that change from day to day.
IIRC she has not shown us how God is helping her to be a better person, improving her marrriage, et al.
I see someone trying to get me to acknowledge what seems to be a very spiteful Deity. A deity who does not want me to think and to just be another person ready to wield a Bible as a weapon, and I can live without a God like that.
My trouble with His4ever is not that she is apparently fundamentalist, but in the way she swings her bible, like a crowbar at our heads. Cracking Scriptures like a whip, sending all of us down the primrose path to Hades, scarcely acknowlegding, the people with religious faith, on the SDMB.
H4E slings Molotov cocktails of Jack Chick without even noticing how many times we have Pitted him.
I can find a church across the way, that will preach hellfire and brimstone, if I was so inclined to hear it. Every now and then even I think about going back to church, but quite frequently i have decided against it, for reasons that change from day to day.
IIRC she has not shown us how God is helping her to be a better person, improving her marrriage, et al.
I see someone trying to get me to acknowledge what seems to be a very spiteful Deity. A deity who does not want me to think and to just be another person ready to wield a Bible as a weapon, and I can live without a God like that.
This will be my last post in this thread, but I just want to make a couple of things clear.
Yes, I believe in sin, and yes, I believe God punishes us. For me, showing cruelty to another person is a particularly heinous sin because it is a direct violation of the Commandment Christ, Himself, gave us, “Love your neighbor as yourself.” When I sin, I confess it to God and, if possible to anyone hurt by the sin. I also atone for that sin. I don’t make a big deal of what I consider sinful as a rule, but there are things about me which might surprise some people. For example, I haven’t watched an episode of Frazier in years because of the strength of my views on adultery. It’s a funny show, and I miss it, but I consider one of its major plot lines to be immoral.
To me the great paradox of Christianity is that we are all sinners and we are all saved. If I sometimes appear to overemphasize the latter, it’s because I’m quite good at reminding myself of how sinful I am. Whether it’s society’s sins of not being rich, thin, beautiful, or even employed, or Christianity’s sins of not always trusting God, of being hard of heart, of wishing I have more than I do, I’m acutely aware that I am not worthy of the Grace which has been given to me. This servant is still grateful that she has.
Joe Cool, you spoke of the Holy Spirit being responsible for winning converts. My take on Christianity tells me that we fallible, mortal human beings are instruments of that Holy Spirit. Thomas could not believe in Christ’s resurrection until he had tangible evidence, seeing and touching Christ’s wounds. There are a lot of people on this Board and in the world looking for tangible evidence still. As I read things, we are to be that tangible evidence. I realize we’ll probably continue to disagree on that and on other issues, but I did want to put it out there.
Also, I’ve already apologized to His4Ever elsewhere, but I would like to apologize to you, [bJersey Diamond**, and anyone else I may have dealt with harshly this week. My own faith took a bit of a beating recently, and some of the struggle I was undergoing spilled over onto this Board.
I have concluded that, according to Joe-Cool, JerseyDiamond, and His4ever, I am most assuredly going to Hell for being sexually immoral. I engage in sex (not just missionary either) outside the bonds of marriage (when I can) and I [Jimmy Carter]lust in mah’ heart[/Jimmy Carter] for women without a second thought about whether they are other men’s wives. And in my deepest heart of hearts, I find it impossible to believe that God has a problem with any of this.
Now, to my understanding of H4e and J’s Cool and Diamond’s belief, God will be sending me to unimaginable torment for all eternity not for the acts themselves, but for my error of faith which precludes me from believing that these acts are wrong. Am I mistaken in this? I’m just trying to be clear.
And if I have it right, what ever happened to letting the punishment fit the crime? Why do I get the same punishment as Hitler and Jeffrey Dahmer? (assuming that they didn’t have the proper faith, because if they did, they’re in heaven as we speak, right?)
Let us assume that the Joe_Cool/H4E/Jersey_Diamond literal view of the Bible is true from “In the beginning…” to “Amen.” What then is the duty of the Christian?
Leviticus 20:13 is pretty clear:
So I would guess that the Bible demandsJoe_Cool should kill me if he ever meets me. The Bible also demands that he should kill Russell Crowe and Meg Ryan.
So we have established the the Mosaic code demands death for homosexuals and adulterers. I’m a walking abomination that is just itching to get stoned to death for being an offence to God.
OK, but what does Jesus say on the topic?
So, Jesus tends to take a more merciful, dare I say “liberal,” view of sin. He sees it as wrong, but correctable and He favors mercy over punishment.
Every time Jesus is confronted by sinners, He doesn’t stone them or curse them or call them abominations; He forgives them. Now, of course, He also said, “Go and sin no more,” but it does seem that He is more inclined to forgive and understand than judge.
Have you ever noticed who Jesus does blast with both barrels? It’s the self-appointed judges of other, the Pharisees. See Luke 18:10-14.
See again Jesus’s condemnation of the self-righteous in Matthew 25:31-46 (the parable of the sheep and the goats), and all of Matthew 23.
So, Joe_Cool, will you condemn Jesus for being too tolerant, too liberal? Jesus seems to weigh in more on Polycarp’s side, while He has some harsh things to say about yours. He emphasizes restoration, not condemnation. And He certainly wouldn’t stone me to death, as you would.
Will you repent your sins, Joe_Cool? Or am I going to have to watch out for incoming rocks at a Jersey Dopefest?
Oh and a note on the “verbal rapists” comment. Rape is a horrible, filthy invasion of the body and the soul, and comparing a well-deserved tongue-lashing on an Internet message board to the unspeakable act of rape is just offensive. Heck, why didn’t you accuse me of a verbal Holocaust while you’re at it?
First of all, being a “Biblical Literalist,” is rather impossible. Are we not familiar with the contradictions in the Bible? It’s up to each of us to decide from what wellspring do we base our moral foundation on; morality is not a Chinese buffet where we can weave our morality from disconnected fibers. Specification leads to sins unspecified and unpunished; a consistent moral code springing from the bible would manifestly have to be picking and choosing discrete prescriptions, and between those points sins would fall unchecked.
Moral codes require a hierarchy, a constitution, if you will, on which to judge conflicting rules and gaps between such. Homosexuality is not the same as when man attempted to scribe the word of god, and handed down our many translated version of same; slavery is not the same; mixed-clothing is not the same; the quality of seafood is not the same; the diseases and social conditions are not the same.
The rationales that led to discrete commandments are not the same as now, and documents that are not updated for modern times ebb their applicability.
To each who follows the Bible’s teachings must distill the essence of the teachings of God from the opaqueness of language, the conflicts of multiple unknown writers with unknown agenda, and the distance of time. This must be a single base thread upon from which your code is woven.
For many, this is “Treat your neighbor as yourself.” and “To one who offers no offense, offer none.”
For me, all following moral applications can resolve to these. My code is consistent
Those who work backwards to define a morality based on conflicting and discrete injunction are merely reflecting their own inconsistent bias, and might as well waste their look perceptive energies looking for the face of God in an Oort cloud.
One must choose a base. The universal is the Golden Rule, but the Secondary is understanding that not all are like you. Therein lies both the rationale for tolerance and its limits.
I think you are mistaken. By that particular formulation of Christianity, you (and I, and all sorts of others) will be sent to unimaginable torment for all eternity for the crime of being human. All other sins aside from birth are more or less inconsequential flourishes–commit one, or commit them all, it doesn’t make much difference if you reject the very idea of substituionary atonement. Mass murderer or Gandhi, they (and we) burn. We deserve to, because we’re human.
Seems breathtakingly misanthropic to me, but I suppose it takes all sorts.
And it didn’t really fit in with that post, but if you think we’ve treated His4ever with respect, courtesy or anything like that, you’re insane.
And if you think that she deserved what she got, you must also think being tarred with a wide brush is equivalent to being poked in the eye with a sharp stick.
#1- I don't remember being rude to H4E or the others. But if I was, I apologize.
#2-Whose God Is It Anyway?
It doesn't matter if PolyCarp's, Libertarians, mine, or Guinastasia's idea of God is the correct one. If any of us is right, then God won't be hurling any of the others into a lake of fire based on their religious beliefs or practices.
#3-Gobear, DaLovinDJ, And Other Atheists
We know how atheists feel about being told that they are going to hell. How would you feel if some one said that based upon your actions you would be going to heaven? Is this condescending? Offensive?
#4-Esprix And Gobear
The author of **Ask The Gay Guy I-V**, and a gay man who can cite the Bible like nobody's business both post in this thread. But do I get any assistance? So far, I've found plenty of referrences to Rambam's *Guide To The Perplexed* but no website that has the text online.
Of course, Lenin and Stalin were atheists. My point was that they were raised in the Orthodox church. I don’t think there were too many Jesuits running around in Tsarist Russia, as Jack Chick seems to think.
And there is the point at which the two roads diverge. Although Jesus is ready and eager to forgive sins, He expects/requires the sinner to live a new life that is free from the sin that bound them. The thing that separates homosexuality apart from all other sins in the minds of those that most harshly condemn it is that the gay person continues to live in a manner that the condemner believes to be unacceptable in God’s sight. A “repentant gay” person (assuming such a thing to be possible) should be acceptable to the strictest of “fundie” churches, as the person has left (or is trying to leave) thier “life of sin”. An openly, unrepentant gay person is thus seen to be flaunting their “sin” in front of them (and God)…
While I doubt that Jesus would stone you to death (assuming he thinks homosexuality is a bad thing) he might ask you some difficult questions about the way you have chosen to live your life.
Grim
[sup](who has deliberately kept his own opinions quiet)[/sup]
Bigots don’t deserve courtesy; it deserves rebuttal and strong condemnation. H4e’views support antigay bigotry, and she is just one of the many people who make my life, and the lives of millions of gay men and women harder than they have to be.
Fundamentalist Christians who share [b[H4E**'s views are the same people who
[list]
[li]deny legal recognition of gay marriage[/li][li]deny health care coverage for gay spouses[/li][li]deny automatic inheritance rights for gay couples[/li][li]deny jobs and housing to gay people[/li][li]harass and threaten gay people[/li][li]thank God when gay people are murdered[/li]
Fundie antigay hatred has real consequences in the real world. IMO, fundies openly embrace evil, and I will resist their attempts to harm me, to dehumanize me, to circumvent my rights as an American citizen and as a human being to my last ounce of strength.
An orphan gets to choose the family that want him in their home.
The family, as described by Joe_Cool & JerseyDiamond:
You want to be part of this family, the parents are very loving and want you to be with them. But be warned, if you mess up, or if you do not love them back, or you do not follow the exact rules without question or understanding, they will beat the living crap out of you. But remember, you deserve it because it was your own doing. Yes, they will love you and take care of you, but you need to be aware of the swift and terrible justice they inflict when crossed. They have a history of doing such. No, you don’t need to understand the circumstances of past judgements, just know that there is a price to be paid for disobedience. No you don’t need to understand it. Yes yes, they will love you. I am part of the family too, trust me! What? No, nevermind that empty gong sound.
The family as described by Polycarp & Libertarian:
This family wants to take you in, give you shelter, support and love. Remember always that they will love you unconditionally. There are rules to be followed, sure. And not following the rules does ahve consequences. But the rules aren’t that hard to follow, they just want you to love them back and also love those you come in contact with. History? Yes, they have a history of punishment, but it must be taken into perspective. Many of those stories are to illustrate points. No, do not focus on the punishments, but the morals taught. It’s easy to focus on the negative, what you need to do is see the end result. That would be the love they provide is so much that you’ll want to share with others. Well, you could tell them about the punishment if you so choose, but you’ll want to talk about the love more because that is what your heart will be full of if you truly are a part of the family. I know, I am a part of that family too.
Which family will the boy choose? And what if it’s the same family but some choose to focus on the punishment without the understanding while others choose to focus on the love with understanding?
The Pharisees were all concerned about putting the law before understanding and love. Jesus pointed this out, and it got him three nails and a tree that didn’t exactly provide shade. If I were you gobear and Polycarp, I’d watch out for those rocks and those plancks of wood. Once they get them out of their eyes that is.