not at all. I don’t beleive either place exists, so people can consign me to hell or heaven all they like. I wouldn’t mind H4e]'s views at all except that her brand of fundie religion has unpleasant real-world consequences for gay men and women.
That’s possible, but that is up to Jesus, not his followers. They are called to love, console, care and to help. When confronted with “sin,” they are to follow Jesus’s example, not the Pharisees. Christians are called to make the world a better place by their presence; I don’t think harrassing gay people comes under that rubric.
Many things “support” gay bigotry: Bigots have been known to use phones, houses, sometimes even driving on roads might support bigotry. Would thou rail against the asphalt?
Their is no meat to your assumption that His4ever is personally responsible for millions of actions or a even a single bigoted action; it is both gross generalization and offensive assumption, something you normally rail against.
Bigoted actions speak louder than bigoted words; perceiving shades of gray instead of black and white bespeaks maturity and stability.
His4ever: Please respond: have you ever condemned a friend? Have you ever withheld employment, housing, or other tangible impact owing to your religious views? Or are you just speaking your mind on a website dedicated to same?
Quixotic78, please keep up the questioning. Your questions resonate with me to such a great extent that I feel you are for all practical purposes, speaking for me (and doing a much better job of it I might add).
This thread has been the most thought-provoking of all the “religion” threads I’ve read here recently. And I have to commend the posters for their overall restraint in defending their respective positions and Beliefs.
A brief personal history. I was raised in a Fundamentalist religion. Hellfire and Brimstone. I was taught precisely what His4ever believes. Upon exposure to science, I came to see that there were indisputable facts that were inconsistent with the belief of Biblical literalcy and inerrancy. For me, logic and reason won the battle. A vicious God was not to my taste anyway, so I left my religion behind me and moved on.
I would be a lie (er… in this context, an “intent to deceive”) if I claimed I’ve been in a spiritual search for these many years of my adult life. That is simply not true. I have been would you might call a happy heathen (no disrespect intended to the poster happyheathen) I live an ethical and moral life. I am kind and compassionate. I am not judgmental. As a consequence, some might categorize me as philosophically “wimpy”. I shrug my shoulders. So be it. I had so much ridiculous dogmatic teaching forced down my throat growing up that I have rebelled against the practice. I’ll believe what I believe and you can believe what you believe… just stay out of my face. For all practical purposes, I never even thought about God or religion.
This changed when I started reading the SDMB. I was shocked to see intelligent, erudite posters who were Christians. Liberal Christians at that. Heck, reasonable and rational Christians. And even better, Jewish posters who helped me understand their faith better.
I began to think “hmmmm, maybe there is a way to practice an organized religion without becoming an irrational bigot”. Polycarp’s “Liberal Christian” views certainly appeal to my personality. (and referring to Polycarp is just a convenient shorthand for not only his views, but other’s perspectives as well, like Mangeout and tomndebb which also appeal to me for various reasons)
But then my thoughts started down the path of the OP. How is it that I can pick and choose those parts of the Bible that I like, and without a second thought disregard those I dislike? As others have said, it is not appropriate to worship the Bible, but rather to worship the God. But the Bible is the keystone to organized religion itself. If it is just a guide to desired behavior, fine. But then I can’t see any appreciable difference between being a Humanist and a “Liberal Christian” (although I’m sure someone will come along and correct this perhaps misguided opinion).
The outward behavior (i.e- observable) of a Humanist and “Liberal Christian” would, it seems to me, to be identical except for the latter’s penchant to worship a personal deity.
There is a major question left unanswered here about what is the criteria for Heaven? (and it was also asked in a different way in this thread about whether or not the Native Americans were going to Hell.) Assuming there is a Heaven and there is a Hell (of whatever flavor), it is apparent that organized religion cannot agree upon what the criteria is for gaining entrance to Heaven or for avoiding condemnation to Hell. I live what most people would categorize as a good life. Some say too bad for me, I’m still going to burn in a lake of fire for eternity. Others say don’t worry, God will take care of me.
Back to the OP… All I see are Beliefs. I see no Truths. What makes one Belief any more valid than another?
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I can “pick and choose” because I do not believe the Torah to be the literal, inerrant word of God. I hold that some of it, Adam and Eve for example, is parable. Other parts are the word of God as taken down by human beings. The general meaning might remain the same, but nuances are lost. I also believe that some parts may have been altered by well-meaning individuals who felt that they were restoring the original text. I also believe that pi does not have a value of exactly 3.
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The general Jewish consensus is that any gentile who followed the 7 laws given to Noah-
1-Not to deny God(eg idolatry)
2-Not to blaspheme God
3-Not to murder
4-No incest, adultery, bestiality or homosexuality
5-No stealing
6-Not to eat a limb torn from a living animal [sub]saw this on cable once. A live lobster’s tail was chopped off. The meat was cooked, then placed in the upside-down tail shell. The tail shell was then stuffed back into the body of the still living lobster. shudder, shudder[/sub]
7-Set up courts to ensure obedience of the other six laws.
Will get into heaven. Maimonides held a stricter interpretation. Many scholars hold a more lenient one.
Jews have it tougher and have to follow 613 laws.
I don't know if the following tale is true. But I like it.
The day Pythagoras proved that his theorem held for all right triangles, he and his students went out and got stinking drunk. In a world of exceptions and qualifiers, they had found an absolute truth.
Theology is essentially the opposite. We can't find absolute truth. Is God the way I think or the way H4E thinks? Is Hinduism the One True religion? Is there a God at all? There are many things I *feel* to be true about God. But unless he starts working miracles through me on a regular basis, or appears to every other human being and tells them that DocCathode is right, I have no proof of anything.
A christians duty is to spread the gospel. Not just bits and pieces, all of it.
Gobear, I know we have been over this many, many times. We are not bound by the old covenant. Please try to keep that in mind.
That’s right, sin it is correctable. He will forgive you, all you have to do is ask. That does not mean you can continue with that sin. You are right, He said, “Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee”. Jesus would much rather you follow Him than to choose punishment. Jesus came here to save us, to show us the way, not to stone us and curse us. I don’t think that anyone insinuated that. Jesus forgives and judges. Jesus does also understand whats going on, that is why he gave us a set of rules. All we have to do is follow them. Follow them and your reward is in Heaven.
First of all, Jesus is going to judge all of us. He judged the Pharisees because they were unrepentant, hypocritical, and they abused their authority. The people Jesus forgave wanted to be forgiven, wanted their sins washed away, and they followed Him. Today, we have to ask Him for forgiveness and we have to Follow Him. You keep speaking of self righteousness, but I don’t see anyone here saying that they are so much better than the next person. All they are trying to do is show you the way.
Jesus forgives who wants to be forgiven. He didn’t walk around telling people that everyone is ok. That is what the ‘Polycarp side’ says in a nutshell. Jesus told people what they must do to be saved. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."
Jesus was not tolerant, He is forgiving. He didn’t walk through the temple and say “carry along sales people”:
12 And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,
13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.
Joe_Cool has not sinned against you. You are sinning against yourself. As a matter of FACT, I haven’t seen him tell you you are going to hell or even judge you. So Gobear, what the heck are you talking about?
If the shoe fits.
ThunderBug, :rolleyes:
Remember, one day the antichrist will show you peace and love. That family will start looking awful good until the torture starts.
What really amazes me is that you think that for people that know the loving and just God, (note that I said loving and just, very important) that they would want something else. To us, nothing else exists. Other religions aren’t an option because why would we want beef jerky when we can have a 20 course steak dinner when we are hungry. Sure, if you have no direction, anything that makes the worldly things easier and better is going to be the best choice. Invest in eternity and not in the worldly things, they will turn to dust one day.
Well, I’d never commit #s 3 or 5 because my moral code prohibits murder and theft, but I’ve done the other four–no, not incest or bestiality, silly, although I’m strongly attracted to musclebears…
I deny God regularly, which entails blasphemy (“There is no God” falls under both prohibitions, I believe); I’ve committed lots of homosexual acts; and I’ve eaten san nakji[sup]*[/sup] when I lived in Seoul, but only once when I was drunk and trying to show the Korean guys how macho I was.
Gosh, the Christians hate me, the Muslims hate me, and now the Jews hate me…<sigh> color me one sad little Gobear. Isn’t there anybody who thinks that being kind to strangers, giving up my seat on the Metro to little old ladies, saying “please” and “thank you” to retail clerks, always making sure my credit card is out when I go through the checkout at the grocery store so I don’t hold up the line, returning my library books on time, and generally trying to be virtuous count at all toward getting into Heaven? I’m in a mutually monogamous relationship, and I try very hard to be the best boyfriend I can be.
<Molly Shannon as Mary Catherine Gallegher impression>
My feelings can be best expressed in a short excerpt from the song “Worse Things I Could do” as performed by Miss Stockard Channing in the motion production of Grease
[/MSaMCG impression]
*San nakji is a Korean form of “extreme sashimi”. You take an octopus out of a tank, cut off a couple of tentacles, then throw the wounded octopus back in the tank, still alive. You chop the tentacles into chopstick–size pieces, then serve them up, still curling and contracting, with some chili sauce and a side of kimchi Jersey Diamond
Then tell your BF to stop relying on Leviticus as an authority.
Scroll up in the thread. No, he didn’t mention me but he definitely went off on gay people (which is why I’m in this thread).
And, no, the shoe does not fit. Your BF’s comment was beneath contempt. Ask anyone who’s been raped.
Who is doing the torturing, this antichrist you speak of or this god you serve? Seems to me they are one in the same. If anything takes the place of Jesus’ teachings (the true meaning of a “antichrist”), it is that what you present as the Gospel. [sarcasm]Good news indeed.[/sarcasm]
I sat at that banquet table and had all 20 courses shoveled down my throat for years. I finally got up and left, sick to my stomach and still quite hungry. I don’t think there was anything wrong with the food per se, it’s the chefs who prepared it that ruined the meal. gobear, IIRC, belief in God is not a requirement of the Noahide covenant. However, it’s that pesky homosexual thing that will get you every time. Now if only you were a lesbian…
Well, DocCathode made a tiny error, and you made one as well, so you’re not as bad off as you think you are.
The first prohibition (at least for non-Jews) is not a positive commandment to worship God, but a negative commandment not to engage in idolatry. As such, an athiest (while perhaps not in the right spirit of the commandment) is not in violation.
Your error is assuming that you’ve been guilty of blasphemy. Blasphemy (as I’ve pointed out on these boards before) is really a poor word to use to describe the prohibition. What the prohibition amounts to is the utterance of a specific sentence, which I doubt you’ve uttered, so you’re probably off the hook there too.
In addition, I’m not sure about the san nakji is, The laws of “eating from a live animal” do not apply to fish (although it is not recommended). While an octopus is not a fish, the same laws may apply to it. I’d have to do further research.
The homosexual acts may get you in trouble depending on what they are. However, keep in mind that Judaism doesn’t (for the most part) have a “go to hell forever” policy, so you’re still not as bad off as you thought you were.
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In any event, we don’t hate you.
Isn’t there anybody who thinks that being kind to strangers, giving up my seat on the Metro to little old ladies, saying “please” and “thank you” to retail clerks, always making sure my credit card is out when I go through the checkout at the grocery store so I don’t hold up the line, returning my library books on time, and generally trying to be virtuous count at all toward getting into Heaven? I’m in a mutually monogamous relationship, and I try very hard to be the best boyfriend I can be.
[/quote]
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I believe that those are all factors that will be weighed in your favor when your books are examined (hopefully not for many, many years).
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I said that was the general consensus. As you might expect, I disagree with it. Murder and theft are obviously bad things. Adultery involves a violation of trust. Incest mixes up the power dynamics of a sexual relationship with the dynamics of the family relationship.
I believe that the Noahide laws regarding God are just plain stupid. The laws apply to Non-Jews. Christians and Muslims have reasons for not following them. Members of other religions don’t believe in the Judeo/Christian/Islamic God anyway. Why wouldn’t they deny His existence? Because of a law made by the same God they don’t believe in?
The limb and living animal law makes sense to me. It involves the infliction of unnecessary pain.
I'm with Gobear. Once, a friend was telling me that she had been raped. Wanting to comfort her, I hugged her. Her involuntary reflex was to scream and back away several feet.
Does H4E now think of every man(bar none-no exceptions-EVERY man) as a rapist? Does she wake up screaming several times a night? Has she curled up in a ball in the corner and wept the whole day
Does she carry deep emotional wounds that will NEVER entirely heal? After decades of emotional wellbeing, will a sound, a scent, an image bring back all the fear, rage and disgust as if she was raped yesterday?
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Not my error. Blame Rabbi Joseph Telushkin’s Jewish Cultural Literacy. I did however change “for example” to eg.
This is why I asked the earlier question. Trying to spread tolerance-check. Trying to spread knowledge-check. The list goes on. I can’t see any but Chick’s God kicking you into a lake of fire.
It’s amazing how all these supposedly educated and intelligent people are completely unaware that words can have more than a single connotation!
Let’s see what the dictionary has to say about it:
Ok, entry 1(noun) says that a rape is a European herb of the mustard family grown as a forage crop for sheep and hogs, and for its seeds, which are used to make rapeseed oil. I think all you smart people can figure out that I didn’t mean you threw mustard or oil at H4e, though you might have…I wasn’t there. But I think it’s safe to say that’s not the definition we’re looking for.
Let’s see what entry 2(transitive verb) says: a archaic : to seize and take away by force. I don’t think you actually took anything from her by force, so I think we can eliminate that one as well. But look at part b. That one is a little closer. b : DESPOIL, whose definition is to strip of belongings, possessions, or value. Now we’ve already established that you probably didn’t take any possessions or belongings, that would be more properly a robbery. But to strip of value …now we’re getting somewhere, aren’t we?
Entry 3 (noun) says: 1 : an act or instance of robbing or despoiling or carrying away a person by force. She can still post, so I don’t think she’s been kidnapped or carried away.
Ah, here’s what you guys seem to think is the ONLY meaning of the word. Definition 2 a : sexual intercourse with a woman by a man without her consent and chiefly by force or deception – compare STATUTORY RAPE.
2 b : unlawful sexual intercourse by force or threat other than by a man with a woman
A valid definition, indeed, but not the only one by any means.
3 : an outrageous violation. Now this is also pretty much what I was getting at, along with stripping of value.
Come on, I took dictionary skills in 3rd grade. Are you telling me that I’m the only one around here who passed it?
Joe, you know exactly what connotation “verbal rape” was meant to convey, so don’t go to m-w.com, look up alternate definitions, and try to weasel out by pretending you meant something else. It’s this kind of intellectual dishonesty that makes me doubt your sincerity as a Christian.
Be a man, and either take your lumps for your breathtakingly insensitive comment, or apologize.
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I believe you mean denotation. Connotation is ideas associated with a term-EG Make your house a home.
I am aware of rape’s other definitions. However, most people define the word as forced sexual intercourse. If you’re the scholar you claim, you should have realised that and either chosen a different word or clarified your meaning through context.
And yet, so does the condemner himself live perpetually in a state of sin. Typically, his lament is, “but you do the same sin over and over!” as though he somehow is more pure owning to his greater variety.