Dreamer and other fundamentalists, a few comments

Oh…and I forgot you believe there are devils around us trying to tempt us. So my analogy is incompete. Daddy’s also asked the baby sitter to tell us to eat the cookies before leaving. Seems he made everything to be sure he’ll have an excuse to torture the kids. Can you think of a worst sadist? But of course it’s quite logical to think that mere humans can’t come close to a god…in the evil, in the case of your beliefs.

clairobscu: Dont forget that “god works in mysterious ways” and “logic doesnt apply to him” and that he has a “different kind of love.” :rolleyes:
Eternal damnation is NEVER ok and rational, no matter what rules apply.

So, would it be fair to say that if someone believes in the Bible, then they are an evil or bad person in your eyes. Just want to understand your position. That seems like one hell of a generalization. One that you wouldn’t likely tolerate if I made a similar comment about oh, say… people from France, an equally ludicrous assumption, IMHO.

Sorry, musicguy, but that’s what religion looks like from out here. Of course, know that I’ve read more of the bible than most of the denizens of meatspace that I debate religion with.
If people believe that a benevolent father figure (that okay, Jodi?) sent his son do die for us, becuase he loves us so, all well and good. Ze problem iz zat the scriptual evidence paints the benevolent father figure as a total bastard. If dreamer is willing to state that every word of the Bible is the literal truth, then I woll bow out, and let clairobscur resume the artillery barrage.

[…puking…]

Set aside for a moment that “Jews” is an amphibolous term. I chose my wife, too. If you think that makes her fair game for your ignorant swipes, you’ve got another think coming. Speaking both as a racial minority and as a person of faith, it makes no difference to me which one you disrespect me for — either one makes you equally contemptible.

Religious person or not, the average bump and grind rap song puts sexual thoughts and visuals into your mind. The problem I have with that is the children who listen to that stuff, but since most non-religious people don’t feel promiscuous sex is wrong, there’s no point in going there.

You were asked for a cite for this in great debates, and I never saw one.

You see - I know this guy…really nice guy. Volunteers with disadvantaged urban teenagers, doesn’t drink, doesn’t smoke, don’t do caffeine, middle aged virgin. Meet him and look at his lifestyle and you immediately put him in the “Nice Churchgoing Christian Man Camp” (I thought he was Mormon for the longest time). But he’s not. He’s an atheist. One of many stealth atheists out there. (somehow, “we’re here, we’re queer” comes to mind, but thats the slogan of another group that has traditionally closeted themselves).

Being Unitarian, (and going to a “Humanist” UU congregation) I know a whole bunch of atheists who are similar - and pretty much do “disapprove” of promiscious sex (Unitarians believe that you should respect yourself and others - one of the few things that Unitarians are asked to believe - its hard to respect yourself or your sex partner if you are being promiscious. Possible, but difficult, and we aren’t the most judgemental of faiths - so you have to look to see it. 'Course, a claim could be made that atheist Unitarians are, in fact, religious).

Non-religious people may be a pretty live and let live bunch when it comes to a thing which doesn’t hurt anyone else when carried out between two (or more) consenting adults. That may or may not mean that they “approve” of the behavior - just that they don’t think its any of their business.

“Believing in the bible” is a very blurry definition, since believers reach vastly different conclusions and have a vastly different view of god. Even litteralists are quick to ignore the parts of the text which are in conflict with their morality.
But dreamer clearly stated that she believed “most of us” (I assume she meant “most of us atheists” but it wouldn’t change a thing if she meant “most of us dopers” or “most of us human bengs”) will be sent to hell. So, as I stated several time above, she believe we will be tortured forever for some supposed crime (actually a thought crime in the case of atheism, but even the worst human crime pale by comparison with eternel torture). And not only she doesn’t have any issue with this but she support it, since she worship the torturer.

So, yes, that would be evil in my book. Actually, I don’t think she’s really evil, since probably she don’t fully realize the actual meanings of her beliefs. But sure, I would like her to really consider deeply what her beliefs actually imply.
It would be the same with literalists who have no issue with the fact their god ordered slaughters and genocides. Those who don’t realize what their belief really mean, or even actually don’t know the content of the bible aren’t evil, but certainly misleaded. Some, though, fully realize the meanings of their belief, like in this famous site which display the gay victim of a hate crime burning in hell and state (rightly quoting the scriptures) that god is vengeful and hate large categories of people. These are certainly evil and not to be trusted.
Other believers don’t buy into litteralism and assume that large parts of the bible actually aren’t the word of god, and don’t believe in eternal damnation. In both cases because it would conflict with their morality to worship a god who would have no issue with slavery, genocide, etc…and would be the “Great Sky Torturer”…These are exempt from my contempt.

Not a valid example. First because being french tells nothing about a person morality. There’s no moral requirment to be french. You don’t have to hold specific beliefs, political opinions or moral assumptions (except if you stretch it to the extreme like in saying that by being french you passively support whatever policy the french governement implement…which isn’t totally nonsentical, but not very sensible, either).
Second because most people, as already stated by other posters, don’t choose their citizenship, hence can’t be held responsible for being of whatever nationality (though once again, someone really willing to do so can certainly find a way to renounce his citizenship…but once again, it’s stretching the concept of “responsability” to the extreme.)
On the other hand, people are supposed to freely choose their religion (except if you think believers are brainwashed hence not responsible for their beliefs…do you :wink: ?) hence can legitimately be called on them are criticized when when said beliefs are morally distateful.

Actually, the fact you choose your wife is irrelevant. It’s the other way around. What would make her fair game for my ignorant swipes would be her behavior/morality. And if she’s evil enough, you could possibly become a secondary target for supporting her. The fact that you love your wife/god don’t make them immune in any way to outside criticism. If your wife was a serial killer, the fact that negative comments about her could hurt you certainly wouldn’t prevent people from vehemently atttacking her. Same with your god.
So, perhaps it hurts you as much to be criticized for your belief than for your race, but it doesn’t change a thing in my book. It’s still unacceptable to attack you because you happen to belong to a given race, but your beliefs, morals, opinions, that assumedly you willingly choose are fair game.

First of all ** clairobscur **, I never said “most” of you were going to Hell. (Can you show me where I “Clearly stated that” as you say?) There will come a day of judgement for each and every one of us. The bible says Hell is eternal. If you could only for one second try to see the other side you would see that since I believe some people are going to Hell, it is right for me to share my beliefs in hopes that anyone does not.

Since my God is *“SO EVIL” *and a *“MONSTER” *and I believe the bible to be the "Evil One’s Word, then surely you must think people like me should be locked up in some loony bin somewhere! You must not have any bible-believeing friends or relatives because they’re bound to tell you their faith says you are going to Hell so they must be crazy too! Or watch out, you might run accross one of your friends or family members who are “closet Christians” to you because they are afraid of your judgement on them just for believing the stuff. My question to you clairobscur is this. Would you rather have a world free of the “bible believing” public? A place where no one is going to even bring up the subject of God. No one there to tell you Hell exists? Would that make life a little easier for you?

I’m thankful I live in a country where I can speak my mind, though it’s getting more and more difficult to do so without being ridiculed.

Dreamer,
You should pay attention to what you wrote. You stated exactly :, “I think you are wrong and most of you most definately are going to Hell?
As for what is wrong with you, it’s not that you’re warning us about the risk of eternal torture. But that you admire and worship the torturer…

Please dreamer plase! STOP! STOP! The hole is getting so deep that we’ll never get out.

You are extraordinarily hyperdefensive about your religion. Have you seen the christians on this board who are respected? They are the ones who are even keeled, open minded, and EDUCATED in the beliefs of ALL SORTS of people.

You are ridiculed in GD because you very rarely have anything to back up your statements, and you are a gross generalizer, that never flies.

Anyone can speak their mind here…just because someone speaks the other side doesn’t mean your words are being hidden.

I like dreamer. She’s thoughtful, asks good questions and listens to the answers. She’s usually pretty clear that she is expressing what she believes is true by liberal use of my favorite phrases: “I think,” “I believe,” “for me,” etc. IMHO, she shows an admirable respect for other people’s right to believe what they believe, even if she thinks they’re wrong, a rare and precious quality in a fundementalist.

She’s made a few gaffes, but that’s part of the learning process.

Signed,
Podkayne
President and Founding Member of the Dreamer Fan Club. :slight_smile:

p.s. dreamer, I for one would be absolutely delighted to have a world free from incessant babble about God or Hell or any of the rest. I don’t know about life being easier. Life isn’t particularly hard in that regard–I am always free to ignore people. One of the beauties of free speech is the freedom to ignore speech you find boring or insulting.

A word of friendly advice: Be careful about statements like this: “. . . it’s getting more and more difficult to do so without being ridiculed.” Unless you can demonstrate that there has been a rise in the amount of ridicule of people who speak their minds, or specifically of people who express opinions like your own, you’re just going to come of sounding like paranoid, parroting End-Times fundie porn.

You misread the point I was trying to make here clairobscur. I quoted already all the things I’ve been called here so I was merely making the point or rather, asking if it would be better if I just threw out statements like that.

Sorry jarbabyj, I do care about being respected here, but if I’m not, well there’s nothing I can do about that now. It’s harldy fair that you say I’m ridiculed because I can’t back up my statements. I know the God I speak of, laugh all you want. I may not know scripture like some of you “highly intellectual” folks here think you do, but so what. Knowing God personally is just as important.

“Hypersensitive” you say? Wow, you must be missing all the other posts here.

and the “hyperdefensive” ones too.

You failed to explain me how a being torturing forever helpless creatures for having been disobedient isn’t evil. Also, you didn’t tell me in what way my analogy of the father horribly torturing his children because they ate the cookies is flawed…

I think (or at least hope) that people like you don’t realize what they’re standing for. In a society where religion wouldn’t be mainstream you probably wouldn’t be locked up, but certainly considered as a lunatic (though some people would certainly be worried about you having fantaisies of them being tortured)

A large part of my family is christian. None think that decent people could be sent to hell. I guess you wouldn’t call them “bible believing”. I probably couldn’t consider as a friend someone who would think I’m going to burn forever and would think it’s perfectly fine…

No judgement about someone else can be as offensive as stating that the person deserve to be tortured forever. I would be unable to wish such a thing for the worst criminal ever…

Most certainly. Religious books shoud go to where they belong : to the “legends and mythologies” row of the libraries. they certainly shouldn’t be used to regulate society and determine what is moral and what isn’t.

Some religions are way less offensive than fundamental christianism and its tyran-god, though…

Hopefully, it’s more and more easier to speak your mind without being told you deserve to be tortured forever. Which is an improvment as compared to being actually tortured and eventually burned at the stake as it used to be the case. I’m thankful for the people who risked their life (and lost them) to allow me to speak my mind. I’ve very little respect for the inheritors of their executioner’s traditions.
There’s zero chance i’m going to feel bad about you fundamentalist torturer god lovers and your plights. Nobody’s trying to force his lifestyle on you, which is much more than what can be told about part of your christian friends. There are no more stakes in our countries, but part of your correligionists not only don’t respect us non-believers but want to be able to legally mess with our ways of life. As a believer, you have the most comfortable place. I’m not going to buy your feelings of martyrdom…

Thanks Podkayne. I’m relieved to read that and am glad you can see those things beyond everything else.

Sometimes my emotions get the better of me so I appreciate the advice and I will do my best to not sound like a “paranoid, parroting End-Times fundie porn.” person.

Dreamer get off the cross, you’re crowding Jesus.

Drop the martyr complex. Just because some of us–a small minority in this country–believe the God of the Bible has serious moral flaws doesn’t mean that believers should be locked up. Believing in foolishness is not a crime or an illness.

If you had bothered to read the thread you would know that most, if not all, of us have Christians in the family. In part, that accounts for some of the hostility.

On what planet? Christians in the USA are most definitely NOT in the closet; did you even notice the popular uproar over the “under God” controversy? Your religion is the dominant faith in this country. Christians here dominate school boards, intimidate the courts, and wield considerable political power. Atheism, on the other hand, is very much a minority view, and espousing atheism publicly can get one into considerable trouble.

Yes.

Oh, merciful heavens, you were…ridiculed…you poor thing. How do you bear up?

Dreamer, I’m sure you must be a very sweet person IRL, but here you are an appallingly poor debater who is so shrill in the defense of her, IMO, extremely narrow-minded faith that she cannot hear what other people are saying. Your idea of a debate is simply to repeat the same declartive stement over and over without any real exchange of ideas. To quote the Monty Python “Argument Clinic” sketch:

Moreover, for somebody who is so intent on debating the truth of the Christian faith, you have a very shallow understanding of the Bible. You don’t even know the Bible well enough to get references, as in the Job discussion.

My biggest problem is that the majority of Christians do not bleeive in live and let live. I’m perfectly happy to allow all of y’all to congregate in church, live godly lives, and do whatever makes you happy.
Buy you people aren’t content. You harangue the rest of us to believe in your god, and you try to censor, shut down, or destroy anything that you find offensive because you have arrogated to yourselves the right to judge what’s fit for others, and not just yourselves.

From Anita Bryant in the 70s to Lou Sheldon today, Christians overwhelmingly have formed the opposition to allowing gay people to lead lives of dignity. Your words talk about divine love, but your acts have shown unremitting hate.

dreamer, if assuming that just because people disagree with you that we think you should be locked up in a loony bin isn’t HYPERDEFENSIVE, then I don’t know what is.

And I’m not laughing at you. That’s where you get in to trouble. You just assume that everyone is laughing at you or thinking you’re crazy. I believe in the SAME GOD AS YOU. I believe that Jesus died on the cross for our sins, rose on the third day and all of that. I also believe in the day of judgement, but I’m not going to run around condemning everyone because of it.

LOVE THE SINNER
HATE THE SIN.

LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF - Jesus said this was the GREATEST COMMANDMENT OF ALL.

Remember that.

J

gobear: didn’t Anita Bryant later recant of her anti-gay stance?