I’m wondering where exactly one can draw the line between “good” and “evil”… I’ll explain. My mother is an extremely devout Christian, which, as you can imagine, gave me a hell of a time growing up. She insists that several normal, fun things are “Satanic”. Ex: Pokemon, Harry Pooter, Dungeons and Dragons, Magic- The Gathering, um… Tolkien, RL Stein and etc.
What exactly is the backing behind some of these beliefs, and what draws the line between “Secular” and “Evil”?
FWIW, J.R.R. Tolkien was an extremely devout Catholic, and his stories of Middle Earth reflect that in some way. (Of course, if your mother is a born-again/evangelical/Fundamentalist Christian, there’s some chance that she doesn’t consider Catholics to be “real” Christians, but obviously it varies from case to case.) Anyway, Tolkien was a linguist, and invented the races of Middle Earth, partly, to have people to speak the languages he had created. He also used the setting and races in his Lord of the Rings to play out a battle of Good vs. Evil, using themes and tropes that borrowed from his Christian beliefs.
As an aside, I would love to read a book about Harry Pooter.
Wherever the hell you want. As the recent debates around here show, the Christian text “The Bible” is unable to deliver a clear message. Some say you get condemned if you do this or that, and others swear up and down that condemned really means loved.
Ink blots and projection, if you ask me.
DaLovin’ Dj
There is a book coming out called “Harry Potter and the Bible.” I saw the art for the title alone, so I can’t say what the theme actually is.
It’s always intrigued me how some people see “evil” in things that other people don’t. I think all the fundamentalists draw the line in their own way, or at least the way they’re told to by their preferred preacher.
The worst part is that so often people say, “I’ve never read/listened to/ seen/ tasted what I’m opposed to, I just know it’s wrong.” It’s one thing for a child to say that about spinach or broccoli, kids but it’s something else for a mature adult to say that about music or a book or movie, and then try to prevent other people from experiencing it as well. If they don’t want to try it, fine. Don’t stop me though.
As my aside, I think I saw a book once about Hairy Pooter, but I may be wrong.
In my (admittedly personal anecdotal) experience, it is the fun aspect that causes the objection rather than the specific content.
Checking in from a somewhat “religious right” point of view (but a person who also owns stacks of ‘satanic’ heavy metal CDs). I think it is what you make of it. If Pokemon or D&D rules you life and you somehow think it is real then maybe it is “evil” but that if you see it for what it is - a book, entertainment, etc… then there is no real harm done. In the end I think all of this really has to do with the mental makeup of the person doing whatever it is that might be considered “evil”.
sheep! you’re baaaaaaaaad baaaaaaad
THANK YOU for being an intelligent rational person. I can’t tell you how often I am absolutely ashamed of the Christian fundies who go on-and-on about things of which they have no knowledge. The sad fact is the phenonemon often works both ways…
NP: Judas Priest - Defenders of the Faith
(a CD that has absolutely zero to do with satanism thank you very much)
Actually, people who are not fundamentalists draw the line between good and evil in one of these two ways also.
What other ways are there? You either derive your own standards of good and evil or you adopt (critically or uncritically) standards offered to you by others.
I USED to be a fundamentalist - now I’m completely on the opposite side of the spectrum (and as pldennison alluded to, I didn’t used to believe Catholics were Christians).
Let me try to explain what I used to believe - though I’m sure not all fundies feel the same way, a great number of them do. Harry Potter is about sorcery and witchcraft which in itself it “evil.” There’s a story of I believe David (could be wrong) in the Old Testament going to a fortune teller and paying a high price for it afterwards. It’s said that the only reason fortune tellers/witches/sorcerers have any power is from communication with demons - even though they don’t KNOW they’re communicating with demons. They can believe they’re communing with the dead but they’re wrong. Again, I don’t believe this anymore, it’s just what I was taught.
Pokemon has a little to do with that same principle (the magic involved), but is mostly “evil” because of the idolatry. Anytime something becomes extremely powerful in your life, and it takes some of the focus off God, it’s bad.
Dungeons and Dragons, and Magic-the Gathering I really can’t say much about. I know really nothing about them. But for the most part, anything secular is bad… and anything strongly promoting secular thought (or denoting Christian thought) is evil.
Again, I’m not speaking for everyone, and I disagree with basically all the beliefs I’ve just spoken about.
Actually, some of us don’t. There is a tangible, observable morality.
That which causes harm to others is wrong, in most cases it is more like that which causes more harm is wrong. Denying this, and sublimating your innate morality to what others tell you is right and wrong can be dangerous.
Someone said, “A Puritan is someone who is obsessed by the dear that someone, somewhere, is having a good time.” You’ll note that the fundamentalists tend to label as “evil” books, movies, and music that both stimulate the imagination, inflame the sense, or are just plain fun. Fundamentalism appeals to people who are afraid of questioning, people who simple answers to complicated questions. Books that engage the sense of wonder, that lead the reader to think, are clearly a threat to the fundamentalist brand of religious orthodoxy and intolerance.
I agree with **Opengrave ** on this. If you are constantly playing a certain game or obessesed with a certain thing and you become powerless under it’s control, then that may be considered something that for you is “evil” in the sense that it is keeping you in it’s grasp. If the lyrics in songs are telling you to go out and commit crimes or hurt yourself or others, I would consider that a source of evil. Obviously you know right from wrong so whatever is telling you to do wrong (in your mind) is evil for you.
I’ve played Magic a few times with the kids I work with and it makes me feel a bit uncomfortable looking at the demons and creatures and reading about their powers and just holding those cards in my hands. For me those images have power because I believe demons are real in the spiritual world. I thought the Harry Potter movie was great and the books are great too.
You remind me of two friends of mine in college who threw away all their toiletries because they had read somewhere that Procter & Gamble was owned by Satanists. Magic is just a lame card game for geeks–it has ZERO satanic influence because there is no Satan! Demons don’t exist; they’re just a figment of the imagination. Cards can’t hurt you, they have no power to do anything.
It amazes me how little faith putative Christians have in the power of their God when they squeal at the slightest sign of the Devil. Aren’t Christians redeemed by the blood of the Lamb, and therefore immune to Satan’s wiles? How cany you people you say you believe that Jesus is Lord of All when you act like Satan has more power than God?
Fo a wonderfully funny parody of the fundamentalist looking for the Devil, check out Wilkie Collins’s novel, The Moonstone featuring the earnestly Christian spinster, Miss Clack. She ahnds out pamphlets with titles like “Satan in Your Hair Ribbons,”“Satan in the Mirror,” and “Satan Behind the Bureau” to the servants.
Talking about stimulating the imagination, when I was in college I did an independent study project comparing public and parochial schools. In the course of my research I came across a book from one religious education organization that said the students were not encouraged to use their imaginations because it was believed that took them farther from God, because the human imagination is the work of the devil. I never could decide whether to laugh or cry.
And of course, all people do see things differently from each other, fundamentalist or not. Otherwise it would be a boring old world, wouldn’t it?
FYI, it was Saul, in 1st Samual 28…
I have to concur with mandielise’s assessment, I too was a fundy-type. I am now an agnostic apostate (actually I am an athiest, but I find the other phrase more enjoyable to say)
The amount of power they put into their Satan’s hands is extraordinary, especially when you consider that they believe in the story of Job. It is quite humourous to watch them completely gloss over the fact that Satan had to ask God’s permission to torment Job, and then believe that Satan will infect them at the merest sound of non-christian music.
Unless of course God gave him permission to infect that person…
Hooboy.
People like this generally have a limited scope of what’s right and wrong–if it falls outside a biblical parameter, it’s considered taboo. It is, I think, based on a fear factor–if you expose yourself to anything outside your tiny conception of the world, the world is a lot bigger and scarier, and–gasp–things which you held dear may not be correct. There’s pride stepping in, which, BTW, is a biblical no-no.
I’ve always felt that one of the purposes of arts and entertainment is to vicariously expose persons to viewpoints and experiences that they themselves can’t or haven’t yet experienced, in order to deepen one’s understanding of the human mystery. For example, I haven’t had kids yet–hence I have no personal experience–but I may get an idea of the meaning of fatherhood and how I should behave based on some character’s experiences in a book, if that’s what the author seeks to portray.
Now, moving into the specifics–there’s basic concepts in Harry Potter, Pokemon, etc–that deal with virtues which any decent person WOULD want to develop. Let’s take Star Wars, for example. Luke Skywalker is an “everyman” sort of character–the audience can relate to his wanderlust, his eagerness, his anger, etc. He’s also got a lot of “normal” flaws: he’s too much of a dreamer, too controlled by his passions, too disobedient, and all of these things do come back to haunt him with real consequences that he caused. There’s valuable lessons that the audience can learn about themselves and carry into life specifically because we can identify Luke’s flaws in ourselves.
The Bible doesn’t quite teach these things, largely. Because it’s written in an older narrative style, it’s not as easy to relate to the stories (although there’s virtue value in the stories of David & Bathsheba, Daniel in the lion’s den, Christ’s courage at his execution, etc). Although it teaches Christians their history, their destiny, and what rules to follow, it doesn’t necessarily relate to the individual per se. Hence, outside literature and entertainment can have value as supplementary material. (And it’s cool.)
So if mom is freaking the hell out, you might ask her to walk through one of these things with you. Say, for example, watch a Pokemon episode together or rent LOTR when it comes out next week. Have a discussion afterwards about the merits and flaws of the program; see what a good Christian should take from the show and what he shouldn’t. Talk about the virtues and vices of the characters (keep away from the “incidentals”–Luke Skywalker is using magic! Bad! Bad!) and see what happens.
Yeah, but to most fundimentalists, there IS a Satan and there ARE demons, and they can hurt you, especially if you’re not Christian and you let them into your life by focusing on stuff like magic spells and the paranormal. Just saying, “Your beliefs are wrong and this stuff is harmless.” isn’t going to convince anyone, and neither is treating people who believe that as if they were idiots or fools.
Yes, Christians are redeemed by the blood of Jesus, but are not immune from Satan’s temptations as he tempted Jesus himself in Matthew 4:3-11.
As much as I believe God to be the Creator of this world, I also believe Satan to be the one who wants to destroy it. I believe in demons and I believe they have the power to influence us, *all *of us.
M:tG features demons, yes. And angels, too. And cards such as Preacher (lets you gain control over another creature), Witch Hunter, and Inquisition.
And I’l let Mr. Lizard say it better than I can about Harry Potter(his writings are archived at www.mrlizard.com )
"Addendume The Firste:It also occurs to me that the reason many Christian parents, especially those of the Gonaud/Kjos breed, object to Harry Potter is that they find that reading about the Durseleys to be far too much like looking into a mirror. Small-minded, evil-spirited, and wondrously petty, Harry’s Aunt and Uncle seek to deny him his heritage and crush any trace of magic out of him, obstensibly ‘for his own good’, but, in actuality, out of their fear and hatred of anything even the slightest bit different than themselves. I know children of fundamentalists. (It’s like being a child of an alcoholic, but without the benefit that the alcholics are occasionally sober). Every one of them has horror stories about what their parents did to them in the name of ‘saving their souls’. Perhaps anti-Potterism is motivated not so much by a fear of children being taught ‘magic’, but by a fear of children recognizing their own home in the early chapters of the book? And worse still, finding comfort and support in the knowledge they aren’t alone? (See http://www.mrlizard.com/fictional.html for why one mythical being is as good as any other) "
How do you fit in, then, that Satan works for God?
Uh-huh. So even though dreamer don’t believe in, say, Pan, he has the power to influence dreamer?
I went to Catholic school, and we were always encouraged to use our imaginations.
The only reason we had things banned-like Garbage Pail Kids, for example (I’m so dating myself!), was because we’d lose them, or play with them during class or get into fights over them.
I remember hearing later on that some Christian groups considered fairy tales and the like Satanic and it always puzzled me. I brought Stephen King to school in 7th and 8th grade and my teachers never so much as raised an eyebrow.
I think people who think they’re “Satanic” are people who aren’t very intelligent themselves-or at least have a hard time separating fact from fantasy. Obviously if demons were real, that would suck.