I’d like to ask FriendofGod a question, and of course anyone else is free to offer their opinion as well. On one thread, I called FoG a “fundamentalist”, and I said my definition of a “fundamentalist” is someone who believes that protecting our children against the “evils” of Harry Potter, Pokémon, and D&D is more important than fighting against the real evils of the world such as hatred, war, famine, and violence. FriendOfGod, I would like to know what your opinions on these things are. Do you believe that things like Harry Potter, Pokémon, and D&D are evil and demonic? I’m just asking because it’s not fair to call you a “fundamentalist” unless you really do hold such beliefs. This isn’t intended to open you up to ridicule, either. I think such beliefs are wrong, but people have a right to hold them. The problem is that people try to push their beliefs into the school systems and force them on others. I know this isn’t really a Great Debate, but I have no other way of getting FoG’s opinion on this. Anyone who wants to debate the question of whether these things are evil and demonic, though, feel free!
Well, D&D is evil just because it tends to stunt the intellectual growth of intelligent and imaginative teens by allowing them to obsess on a standard fantasy universe rather than exploring the wondrous variety of escapism which can be found in popular and classic literature.
Pokémon is evil because, well, look at it, fercryinoutloud! —[facetious plea]Please, feed your kids peyote instead; at least they’ll have religious visions and only minor chromosomal damage.[/facetious plea]
Harry Potter is a series of well-written magical adventure novels for kids that have made a once struggling mother in Great Britain fabulously wealthy. No problem there.
A topic named after me! I’m touched :).
I want to give your question justice so I am going to wait to respond until this weekend … but I wanted to let you know I saw it and will respond. In case you didn’t notice I just finished a marathon response to another topic and I still didn’t finish responding to everyone! But I will respond this weekend when I get a chance.
Do you believe that FriendofGod was attempting to do that?
Just curious.
That is an awfully narrow minded definiton and I doubt you’ll find a single person who believes that.
Your fundamentalists probably work just as hard, if not harder, against the real evils. Some of them just happen to included some things that you and I don’t… well except for Telatubbies.
If anything desensitizes our youth to stupidity it has got to be that.
From dictionary.com:
Fun·da·men·tal·ism (fnd-mntl-zm)
n.
An organized, militant Evangelical movement originating in the United States in 1920 in opposition to Liberalism and secularism.
Adherence to the theology of this movement.
A movement or point of view characterized by rigid adherence to fundamental or basic principles.
funda·mental·ist adj. and n.
(Opinion to follow)
Fundamentalists are conservative politically, are typically of the “every word in the Bible is true” mindset, and firmly believe that they are in a world whose values and beliefs are diametrically opposed to their own. The reason they offend so many people is because they are SURE they know the truth and wish fervently for everyone else to know that truth as well.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by xenophon41 *
**
**
Xenophon - I’m pretty sure you’re speaking tongue-in-cheek here, but I’ll take this one on anyway…
I think that this is a BS argument - what you’re saying is that a bunch of teens who interact as a group, learn to communicate, work as a team, etc., is evil? And then compare it to kids who use literature to “escape” from reality? I’ve got nothing against kids reading at all; don’t get me wrong. But this argument against D&D is ridiculous. As far as stunting intellectual growth - being the “Dungeon Master” requires you to create an entire alternate world that makes at least some sense in structure and development.
Also - any cites on research done on the intellectual stunting of D&D players?
Did I used to play D&D? Yes.
Do I now? No
Do I miss it? No.
Did I have a good time, and make new friends? Yes
Am I intellectually stunted? Couldn’t tell ya
Shylock:
I used to play D&D also. I don’t play it now, and I don’t miss it. I had a good time and made friends when I played. I don’t think it stunted my intellectual growth. And yes, I was speaking tongue-in-cheek for the most part; I don’t really think D&D is either evil or dangerous.
However, I knew plenty of players who were into D&D to the exclusion of all other forms of entertainment and intellectual stimulation, in which cases I think these people were stunting their intellectual growth (just like those geeks who spend all their time on internet message boar— er, skip it.)
Okay?
[tongue-in-cheek]
(Pokémon, on the other hand… <shudder> The antichrist may well be an animator working out of a Japanese studio.)
[togue-out-of-cheek]
But every word in the bible is true. Just take the word “fish” on page 597. Is that true or what?
In answer to your question, spooje, I don’t know if FoG wants to push those beliefs into the school systems or not. That’s why I asked the question. All I know is that there are many people who do want to do this. I just thought it was unfair to assume that FoG believed these things without actually asking his opinion.
Well, golly, I surely do wish that folks wouldn’t categorize Fundamentalists. When folks categorize blacks, or gays, or women, by saying they’re “lazy” or “butt-fuckers” or “stupid”, it’s considered insulting and non-PC. So why is it OK to post something like the “opinion to follow” above. It’s not clear just whose opinion that is–is that yours, Mars Horizon? 'Cause if it is, I surely do think you’re a teeny bit out of line.
I’m happy to describe myself as a Fundie, even a Fightin’ Fundie on occasion, and for starters, I am NOT conservative politically.
I do NOT believe that “every word in the Bible is true”. There are obvious discrepancies here and there, but they don’t affect the overall truth of the thing.
I’m not sure what is meant by “firmly believe that they are in a world whose values and beliefs are diametrically opposed to their own.” If you mean believing that evil is in the world, then certainly.
Yes, I guess I’m guilty as charged with being sure that I “know the truth and wish fervently for everyone else to know that truth as well.” So what? The atheists here at the SDMB are just as sure that they know the Truth, and wish just as fervently for everyone else to know that truth as well. The difference between us is that my religion commands me to spread the Gospel; the SDMB atheists are just doing it out of the kindness of their hearts, I guess.
I don’t think that Harry Potter, Dungeons and Dragons, Pokemon, et al, are Satanic. As a matter of fact, I’ve read all 3 of the Harry Potter books. As a further matter of fact, I read a lot of science fiction, Stephen King, H.P. Lovecraft. I also watch movies like The Blair Witch Project and Spawn and Blade. I don’t think the Procter & Gamble logo is Satanic. I don’t think Bill Gates is the Antichrist (well, maybe just a little).
I could go on, but I won’t. I think you get the point. Please don’t categorize.
But I do thank you for the dictionary definition. Please don’t let this thread turn into a Fundie-bashing thread.
OK, I admit I was being sarcastic when I said that fundamentalists ignore war and violence in favor of Harry Potter. I know that they really don’t do that. I also know that, technically, a fundamentalist of any stripe is someone who believes in the inerrancy of their religion’s Scriptures. My point is that the thing I find most irritating about fundamentalists is their tendency to condemn fictional things as being gateways to the “real” world of evil. But, I know that not all fundamentalists believe this, and those that do believe it to differing degrees. For example, most of the fundamentalist movie critics I’ve seen seem to believe that Pokémon is a bit suspect, but not actually evil. On the other side, however, I’ve read accounts in which parents claimed their children actually became possessed by demons when they played with Pokémon cards. And, of course, we’ve all read the Dark Dungeons Chick tract, in which D&D players commit suicide after learning the “real” magic. The reason I started this thread was to find out what FriendOfGod believed about this sort of thing. He is, undoubtedly, a fundamentalist, by which I mean, he believes the Bible is inerrant. However, what I’d like to know is, does he believe that fictional stories and games are a source of real supernatural evil? There, I hope that clears that up. Now, back to the thread.
I always like it when someone decries stereotypes and then posts some of her own. I don’t offhand know of any atheist who claims to know capital-T truth, and I have trouble assigning the label of “Truth” to a simple decision that the likelyhood of something existing is very low. And I don’t want all the theists on this MB to (dis)believe as I do; who would I argue with then?! :eek:
**Duck Duck Goose **:
I challenge you to show me one single instance of an atheist professing to know the Truth. Y’know, for someone who just complained about characterizations. . .
And I, for one, don’t do anything out of the kindness of my heart.
Waste
Flick Lives!
DDG,
So it is out of line to describe Fundamentalist Christians as conservative politically? Or to describe them as biblical inerrantists? I know a LOT of people who would call themselves fundamentalists. To a person they are Conservative, vote Republican, have nothing good to say about our “immoral President”, haven’t voted Democratic since Carter, and bristle at the notion that the Bible is anything BUT the Inspired Word Of God. Sure, this is categorization, but it is not meant to be insulting.
To use your examples: categorizing blacks as having darker skin than whites or saying that gays have an overwhelming propensity to have sex with the same gender is not insulting, it is just true. Call it categorization if you want. When you start getting ugly, and insult others, e.g., “lazy”, “stupid”, “butt-pirates”, whatever, then you have a problem. The OP was asking for a definition of a fundamentalist. SO… I gave the dictionary definition, and my interpretation of that definition - which is why I felt it necessary to include the “opinion” thing so someone wouldn’t then comment “hey MH, is that whole paragraph in the dictionary or is that just your opinion?” You know how GD can be!
My point being, I was\am not attacking you, fundamentalists, or anyone else for that matter. But when the OP asks for a definition, well… that’s what you got, along with my clearly marked opinion. If you are a fundamentalist, and are liberal politically, well, you’re the first I’ve met. Pleased to make your acquaintance.
Regards,
MH
xenophon41 wrote:
So, xenophon41, how many hit points did your highest-level character have? 
Okay rick, I’m ready to answer your question. I’ll post it again here for easy reference:
You later added this:
[Quote]
OK, I admit I was being sarcastic when I said that fundamentalists ignore war and violence in favor of Harry Potter. I know that they really don’t do that. I also know that, technically, a fundamentalist of any stripe is someone who believes in the inerrancy of their religion’s Scriptures. My point is that the thing I find most irritating about fundamentalists is their tendency to condemn fictional things as being gateways to the “real” world of evil. But, I know that not all fundamentalists believe this, and those that do believe it to differing degrees … However, what I’d like to know is, does he believe that fictional stories and games are a source of real supernatural evil?
[Quote]
In a sense, what you are asking in a roundabout was is … what is my opinion of satan. How does he operate? Would he use fiction to get his point across? To what end would he go to warp people? What methods does he use?
I will specifically address the three things you mentioned but let me make my overall point first. Ask yourself this question – is God above these things? Would God use fiction to change people’s lives? Would God use music to draw people to Him?
I say to these questions - “of course”! God will use whatever tools are available, be they CCM, the Left Behind novels (or other good Christian fiction), or other numerous tools to win as many people as possible into His kingdom.
Now with that, realize that satan is a copycat. He hasn’t got an original bone in his body. Look through the Bible and in the world today and you’ll see it.
TWO EXAMPLES:
– Moses threw down his stick and it became a snake — and the 3 Egyptian magicians did the same (but Moses’ snake swallowed theirs’)
– God today is speaking supernaturally through prophets throughout the world to encourage people toward God and speak words of comfort — and there are Psychic Hot Lines that are advertised as ways to get the true dirt on people you know.
Those are two of zillions of examples. So anyway, you can see where I’m going with this. God uses music and fiction, so SURE satan wants to use it too! He’ll use whatever means he can to get his point across. Think about it logically … if you were satan, wouldn’t you use every tool at your disposal?
You asked if I believed fictional stories and games are a source of real supernatural evil? Certainly they can be! AND certainly they can be a source of real supernatural good as well! For example, I know personally of one person who came to Christ as a direct result of reading the Left Behind fiction series, and there are millions more like her around the world. Likewise, I know a guy who got deeply into the occult as a direct result of getting involved in Dungeons and Dragons when they were younger. Thankfully they aren’t in it today.
To answer about the three specific ones you mentioned:
Pokeman and Harry Potter: I have to say I don’t know. I’ve heard Christian friends argue both sides. Some say not to worry about it, some say it’s dangerous. Having not read or seen either, I can’t really say for sure.
D&D, however, I do know a little about, although it’s been a LONG time (early 80s). But I do recall thinking, from what I saw, that it was an exceptionally dangerous game.
I think the real problem is this – there are people who can play D&D and not give in to what I think are some seriously dangerous demonic overtones. HOWEVER, it goes both ways! Atheists can read the Left Behind fiction series and be entertained, but not come away believers in Christ.
My point here is this … I think the real problem is that the people who ARENT affected as much are the ones who say “Hey, you’re just making a big deal out of nothing!” Maybe it’s nothing TO YOU, but have you ever thought about how it might affect someone else? A more obvious example might be rap songs encouraging you to kill policemen. You might listen and just laugh off the message. Someone else might take it as a rallying cry.
So I hope I answered your question ricksummons. If you have any “follow-ups” I’ll check here again this weekend. I realize it’s probably not what you wanted to hear, but hey, it’s honest!
FriendOfGod, your honest opinion WAS what I wanted to hear. That doesn’t mean I have to agree with it, but it also doesn’t mean you have to agree with me. So, if I understand you correctly, you believe that D&D CAN lead people to evil, but that it’s also possible to play it WITHOUT being led to evil, in much the same way as it’s possible to drink alcohol without becoming addicted. On that note, I’d just like to let everyone know that the D&D 3rd Edition Player’s Handbook was released today, so all of you spiritually corrupt people can rejoice!
I don’t know if that’s what Fundamentalist Christians believe, but I think, then, that they’d be hard pressed to condemn the Left Behind series, or even C. S. Lewis’s fictional works.
I suppose any group can have a core of pig-ignorant bozos, but I find it hard to believe that they would read nothing but non-fiction. I’ve always believed that any kind of fiction, if it’s any good at all can be described as “the truth dressed up like a lie.”
By that I mean, the characters and their stories did not actually exist or happen. But their characteristics and human emotions are commented on to reveal a truth about people. Those who only see Harry Potter as being about witchcraft, for instance, are missing the whole point about an adolescent’s discovery of who he is, who his friends are, and what is unique about him as a person.
Pokemon, on the other hand, is just really annoying.
For some additional perspectives on this debate, check out these links:
Harry Potter from the same source
Harry Potter from Focus on the Family, a conservative Christian site
Pokémon from Focus on the Family