H.L. Mencken, in The Devil’s Dictionary, I believe. Though I think it’s “fear,” dear. 
Glad to see you’re capable of change if needed 
Dungeons and Dragons (from many of the fundie gripes I heard) has several points to dislike.
The D&D game world is Polytheistic
The use of magic and or sorcery is encouraged
Use of violence is seen as an appropriate means to an end.
Players sometimes resort to stealing, breaking and entering, and even assasination to achieve a goal.
Religious institutions are sometimes cast in an unfavorable light within the game.
etc, etc, etc…
Of course if you think anything in this game reflects on real life then you would probably believe “Bree-Yark” is goblin for “We Surrender”
Recovering geek checking in…
Magic: The Gathering stopped printing any cards with reference to demonic figures, and eliminated demonic imagery, in 1995 when they altered their base card set from the 3rd ed. (aka Revised) to the 4th ed. They eliminated cards with “demonic” in the title, and a pentagram on one card. Mind you, all these cards were black-magic spells, of the different spell colors in the game, where you’d expect this. Anyways, they gutted all that to make the game more kid-friendly, and to stop the aversion of schoolteachers and cafeteria monitors who initially overreacted and banned Magic in schools (it was banned in my school briefly, though you could still play Hearts or Euchre if so inclined.)
So I’d say Magic has made an earnest good faith effort to alleviate those fears. I haven’t played in 4 years, they might have changed back, but I doubt it. The game is designed to be even more kid-friendly now then it was when I played.
Recovering geek checking out, heading for the bar…
Part of the function of this board is to fight ignorance. Being superstitious and fearful of spirits is the absolute definition of ignorance. No grown, rational person has any business believing in the supernatural. If we continue to play codependent to the credulous, then this board might as well just give up its purpose. To my mind, belief in gods and devils is as ridiculous as believing in feng shui, astrology, palmistry, or reading tea leaves.
No grown, rational person has any business telling another grown, rational person what he or she should believe. Rather, it is the place of a grown, rational person to assume that other grown, rational people make up their own grown, rational minds – as they have every right to do. To attempt to set oneself up as the arbiter of appropriate beliefs is neither adult nor rational. It is, rather, an exercise in futility and a handy way to piss people off.
You’ve got to be kidding here gobear. Saying that “anyone who believes in the supernatural is” What? What are all the Jewish, Christian, Catholic, Buddhist, Muslim, Mormans, Hare Krishnas, Hindu’s, etc?? Obvioulsy you don’t think they are “rational”, so what then?
He does?
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No matter if I believe in Pan or not, if you believe that he/she can influence others I’m not going to tell you you’re wrong since I’ve never had any interaction with Pan.
I’m not setting myself up as arbiter of anything; I am giving my opinion, just as you have yours.
You’re repeating yourself; Catholics are a subset of Christians, as I suppose Mormons are–there is some disagreement on the definition of Christian involved. Buddhists don’t necessarily believe in God, although there are definitely deities in Buddhists sects.
But, yeah, I think they are all dead wrong in believing in gods–unfortunately, I can’t prove it. There is no rational basis for believing in gods or devils. What you lot have is faith, which is inherently irrational. Belief is gods is something either you have or you don’t. It cannot be arrived at through reason or logic. The trouble is, it can’t be readily disproven either.
I defy Jodi, Dreamer or any other theist to show that faith is logical, that God’s existence can be conclusively demonstrated with irrefutable evidence.
`iginally posted by dreamer *
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He does?
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Well, as I understand the Judeo-Christian traditions, yes. If you remember Job, and if you accept the idea of God the creator of everything, then Satan is also one of God’s creations. If you believe in a divne plan then ultimately Satan does work for God. He can’t help it.
I was raised catholic and spent 2 years at a catholic school before it closed. My personal experience was pretty good (except for the masses in the hall) and I was never discouraged from using my imagination. It may be different at some of the fundamental or evangelical schools.
Let me just say one thing about the fight about supernatural beliefs. When I was born again, I found it unbelievable that anyone could ever NOT believe. The whole universe made sense within Christianity - and it was backwards without it. I thought I had figured something out that all the non-Christians hadn’t, and they could greatly benefit from what I knew - otherwise they were just ignorant morons who WANTED to sin.
Then I “saw the light” a second time and realized that every other religion made just as much sense to me as Christianity did, and TO ME it seemed ignorant that any one group could say “Everyone else in the world is wrong, but we’re right!”
Therefore, my advice is this: both sides of the equation see it their own way. They don’t understand the other’s point of view very well. Take what you can and learn as you grow. You’re not gonna change each others’ minds, k? I love you all! Buh bye now…
In the interest of fighting ignorance: Mencken did not write the * Devil’s Dictionary. * It was Ambrose Bierce.
Well, and telling someone who believes in feng shui that he’s wrong and treating him like he’s ignorant or a fool isn’t going to convince him either.
It reminds me of what a friend’s father said to me about debating religion. He said (and I’m quoting him from memory.)
Fundimentalists, or people who believe in feng shui, or even David Icke aren’t stupid, for the most part, at least not any more or less than people who don’t, and talking to or about them as if they are stupid is just wrong and a bad idea.
You know gobear, if I felt you really wanted to hear what I have to say without bashing it, then I might stick around and talk to you for awhile. But since I feel you just want to tell me I’m dead wrong and irrational, then I see no point in continuing this conversation with you any further. That’s pretty sad IMO.
Personally, I continue to be interested in the explanations people give for believing in the supernatural. As someone who has never experienced the supernatural, and expects never to encounter it in my lifetime, I’m certainly curious. Please, by all means, those who disagree with gobear expound on this. If you need to start another thread, then by all means do so.
Rereading that paragraph, there’s a chance it would be perceived as hostile. It isn’t, it’s genuine. I would be adversarial if I were to take part, but I have no intention of doing so. I’m genuinely curious about people’s beliefs in the supernatural. I have plenty of scientific speculation on why people believe that sort of thing, as I read Skeptical Inquirer on a monthly basis, but I remain curious. I’ve never actually met a person who believed that Satan or various demons affected the material world, now that would be an interesting point of view.
<bows to photopat in honor of that clear and succinct reply>
I could indeed make the argument that Pan influences you, whether you believe in him or not: ever felt panicked? had a moment of panic? had a panic attack?
But that’s not the point. You believe demons exist; I don’t. How can something that does not exist possibly influence me?
I’d just like to note that not ALL Christians are fundie fanatics who believe that D&D is evil. Check out this site, for example. This guy goes through every single argument fundies have ever made against D&D and demolishes them all.
Dreamer, I know you felt attacked by the response to your comments, but I do have some responses and questions for you. I hope you won’t take offense.
Is the source of the problem really the music, or is it the person? People have committed horrible atrocities in the name of the Bible a lot more often than in the name of musical lyrics. Should we then denounce the former simply because of how certain people respond to it?
I think that it is more responsible to place the blame for actions on the individual that commits them, except in very rare circumstances where the blame is shared by another individual (I am thinking of cases where people are coerced into criminal acts by charismatic individuals / cults, i.e. the Charles Manson murders). It’s simply unfair to blame rock and roll, Dungeons and Dragons, and Beavis and Butthead for the acts of irresponsible adolescents, but on the other hand to ignore religious extremists who commit crimes.
Should people consider the responsibility of glorifying evil or immorality to people, especially young people? Of course. However, that is not the same as viewing Magic as evil just because they have fantasy imagery which your particular religious view of the world considers demonic or that depicts sorcery (biblically, evil), particularly when most fantasy parallels a good vs. evil worldview and a set of morality very similar to Christianity. (Look at D&D paladins and good clerics, and at Magic white [‘good’] cards, for example.)
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Fair enough. If you feel that certain influences are negative on your life, then you should avoid them. As long as the stress is on personal responsibility and individual choice, I don’t have a problem.
That’s fine. You don’t have to play Magic if you don’t want to. There is a certain amount of Christian imagery in a lot of fantasy. I don’t find this particularly surprising - Christian imagery is compelling because the Western world is, heavily, Christian. Tolkien, the most prominent early fantasy author, was a Christian and there are strong Christian themes (death/resurrection of Gandalf) and images (the Balrog, a very demon-like figure) in The Lord of the Rings. I just think you should keep in mind these things when you look at those cards. Do people play with them because they really want to control demons, or because the struggle between supernatural/elemental forces is a compelling basis for the game? (Heck, play White/Green decks vs Red/Black!)
Hi grendel72
No, this demonstrates my point. You’ve adopted a standard that “that which causes harm to others is wrong”. This is either a standard which you have derived yourself, or one which someone has suggested to you and you have accepted.
I once took my D&D books to work with me. I worked in a small (really small) town hospital, on the grave shift. My interaction with patients and the outside world was nill.
My charge nurse, who observed me reading my books blew a gasket, and told me that I was not to bring those evil books back into the hospital.
The other nurse on shift (I was a CNA) agreed.
I gave up at that point trying to explain to folks that the rules that they believe in don’t apply to me, and that I’m ok with the “risks” I take.
I think it’s an inherent need to meddle in others affairs.
Hey, I’m an atheist; do you expect me to agree with you? In this and other threads, you have been unable to give any evidence for belief in God beyond, “Well, I just believe.”
I’m reading a history of Christianity called The Faith, by Brian Moynahan. I’ve read every work of Christian apologetics C.S. Lewis ever wrote. I’ve read William Law, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, John Bunyan, John Stott, and Josh McDowell. I’ve read the entire Bbile, and I can quote Scripture with the best of them. I’m hip to Christian thought.
How many books of atheism, free thought, or skepticism have youread? Ever read Bertrand Russell’s Why I Am Not A Christian? How about Voltaire? James Randi? Carl Sagan? Have you read any scriptures of other religions? The Dhammapada? The Heart Sutra? The Diamond Sutra? The Qu’ran? Any of D.T. Suzuki’s books on Zen Buddhism? How about The Book of Mormon? The Bhaghavad-gita? The Upanishads?
Your defense of Christian belief seems parallel to Lucetta’s defense of her love for Proteus in Two Gentlemen of Verona:
{Yeah, I know it sounds sexist, but blame Shakespeare, not me.)