"Satanic"- Or Harmless Fun?

Great Debates
41

I don’t mind discussing anything with people who are genuinely interested in hearing what I and others have to say.

RexDart, you might be interested in THIS thread.

Well, the thing is is that they do exist. So whether you believe in them or not, or can see them or not, they are there. They probably don’t waste much of their time on unbelieving atheists though. What would be the point?

**fluiddruid **, You make a good point. IMO there are songs in which the lyrics do have influences on people. Religious person or not, the average bump and grind rap song puts sexual thoughts and visuals into your mind. The problem I have with that is the children who listen to that stuff, but since most non-religious people don’t feel promiscuous sex is wrong, there’s no point in going there.

Your right. You can’t blame the acts of individuals on anything but themselves. But you can see that they get their ideas from somewhere and they take those ideas and make them into something of their own. Even those religious extremists take the bible out of context and use it for what they think is “right”.

Again I say, the Magic game made me feel uncomfortable. Never did I say the game was evil.

gobear, we’ve already been down this road before. I know you read the bible and all those books based on religion. Why? I have no idea why you even care if you are so hateful of it all, makes no sense to me. It also makes no sense to discuss any issues with someone who is so hateful of others and their beliefs and is quite rude about it as well. Enough said.

42

Hateful? Rude? You will need to clarify because I’ve been pretty darn nice. Vehement disagreement does not equate rudeness.

43

Tsk, tsk. Green magic is paganistic, naturalistic, and other ungodly things. I’m afraid that you’re stuck with white-only for a good, God-fearing deck.

And dreamer, do you consider the tenants of Islam, Buddhism, and paganism to be accurate portrayls of the universe? How 'bout a cosmology textbook?

To quote:
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.
Stephen Roberts

44

I don’t think gobear needs defending, he/she is obviously well acquainted with the lunacy and inherent intolerance of even the moderate faith positions.

I think it fascinating though that you (dreamer) deride him for knowing the bible – when if it was the opposite case you’d deride him for not knowing.

So you assert without evidence that demons exist, yet you maintain that gobear is impervious to argument, you don’t use argument to form opinions, you take things on faith, and that is dangerous.

You then snidilly go on to suggest that the posited demons wouldn’t waste their time on unbelieving atheists like gobear. Why? Because he/she’s already damned? Because he/she’s already on the dark side?

See! Bigoted, hateful and hating.

I don’t hate you dreamer, I hate religions and the way they debase us all.

45

dreamer, I’d like to remind you that you’ve been just as adamant about stating that Christianity is true as gobear has been about denying any possibility. I want to remind you that I’ve been EXACTLY where you are before, so I understand where you’re coming from quite personally; however, your statement:

“Well, the thing is is that they do exist. So whether you believe in them or not, or can see them or not, they are there. They probably don’t waste much of their time on unbelieving atheists though. What would be the point?”

comes out VERY insistant and derrogatory. I understand that to you this is absolutely true. There’s no denying the presence of demons and angels, and those who do are setting themselves up for trouble. But adding that it’s a waste of time for demons to attack non-believers sounds derrogatory when they don’t know why you believe it’s a waste of time. I believe what you meant to say was that demons are here to keep people from God, so if someone’s already keeping themself away from him, there’s no need for them. So y’all out there, she WASN’T trying to be mean - she’s just stating her beliefs, k?

On the flip side, gobear, right now, I’m where you are. I, too can quote scripture with the best (hell, I was Baptist), and I’ve read all the books. However, you ARE coming off a bit harsh. I know it seems often times that beliefs are without basis and come about by accepting everything someone else says without thinking, but for many people that’s not true. There are many intelligent, thoughtful people out there who honestly believe these things. What I’ve decided for myself is that I only have to find what I believe. If someone else believes in something that I find horrendously erroneous, let them. So long as they’re not hurting anyone (and the vast majority of religious people - be it Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, whatever aren’t), then let them believe it.

However, it should also be noted that the reason most atheists/agnostics/theists of another religion, lash at Christians in this country is that the latter have a tendancy to push their faith on us. It would be much easier to end arguments such as this one, if Christians didn’t have the idea that they have to change everyone - for their own good. That might not have started this argument per se, but once a person’s in defensive mode, they’re likely to strike.

sorry for the hijack!

46

Thanks for the compliment Squish. I get lucky now and then.

47

I don’t think it’s fair to call Dreamer bigoted or hating, TGU–I do think she’s in need of education. Her idea of argument is merely to assert a statement ad infinitum, instead of forming a coherent argument. She can’t even mount a coherent defense of Christian belief, and it seems to me that if you can’t clearly explain what you believe and why you believe it to another person, then you don’t really understand it yourself. It’s sad that so many Christians just parrot whatever their pastor tells them than take the time to think about their faith. Dreamer really ought to read Mere Christianity by C.S, Lewis; it’s a pretty decent piece of Christian apologetics which might help her in a debate.

48

A religious conservative worries that his neighbors don’t go to church enough.

A religious liberal worries that his neighbors go to church too much.

(While I try to respect someones religion, there seems to be a certain irony to “Its evil if it controls your life too much” used as an explaination of religious disapproval. But then, I’m a religious liberal)

49

OK, dreamer, I’ll try this again: please tell me whether you think the Erinyes affect us all.

50

I’m with gobear on this one. There are plenty of otherwise rational, intelligent, etc…people who believe in magnetism healing, astrology, haunted houses and whatnot. I indeed see no difference with beliefs in invisible gods, demons and the like. If one consider that fighting ignorance include dismissing things like Uri Geller and astrology, it must equally include dismissing miracles and christian mythology.
I’m waiting for people who strongly disagree with gobear to similarily jump on everybody making a statement that could be considered as a criticism of other irrational beliefs/believers. Some (rare) posters will. But on the overall, most wouldn’t have found anything wrong in gobear’s post if he had said the same thing about a less mainstream belief, and wouldn’t have bothered responding (or would have actually supported his position).

51

Say what you will gobear. You don’t like the fact that I believe without without physical proof. You think I can’t have a “coherent” argument, and you say I can’t even come up with a “coherent” defense of why I believe. That is not true! I explained in every way in another thread why I believe and I see no reason to do it all over again, especially when whatever I tell you about my beliefs you call me “ignorant” and “not a rational human being”.

Today, you are at the top of my prayer list. Whether you like it or not! :stuck_out_tongue:

52

I think y’all are being fairly harsh to dreamer. She obviously has a deep belief in something. I agree she can’t back it up to us, and therefore shouldn’t state it as fact… but she IS allowed to say that belief is why she thinks one way or another about the topic here.

As I tried to say before, to us it seems irrational, but to her, our thinking seems equally irrational. I know it’s hard to believe, but I’m serious. We use science, logic, and reason - fundies use faith, teaching, and spiritual guidiance… who are we, as equal human being to choose which is the correct road? I have chosen my road - but I refuse to call something uneducated, irrational, or the like because they’ve chosen a different ideology.

53

You are taking general comments and making them personal. Calling your faith irrational and calling you irrational are NOT the same thing. And no, I don’t thinkl you’ve really got the hang of debating a position. “I believe it because I believe it” isn’t a very defensible position.

Nonsense. Fundies are the enemies of progress. Fundies ban books, discourage higher education for their children (unless you count Bible college), support homophobic laws, and prefer teaching children to believe 4,000-year-old Mesopotamian creation myths over the evidence of science. Reason to a fundie is like sunlight to a vampire.

54

gobear-and not ALL religious are against progress. You said “fundies”.

I got a damn fine education at a Catholic institute. Some of the best schools in the world are run by the Jesuits.

I know you were talking about fundies, but that does not mean that ALL of us with a belief in God or whatever are “irrational.”

55

FWIW, on Christmas Eve last year, the Methodist church I attend with my parents (once a year whether I need it or not) the sermon was entitled “Of Hobbits and Hogwarts”. In it the pastor, far from engaging in the typical fundie Potter-bashing, drew parallels between Jesus and both Harry Potter and Frodo. It was refreshing, although it did strike me as a teesy bit odd.

For a different take on LOTR, take a gander at this:

http://www.capalert.com/capreports/lordofrings_fellowship.htm

56

My mother was telling me that our pastor gave his homily on Harry Potter once-that he had read the books and loved them. (I don’t remember the details-naturally I wasn’t there).

57

Sorry, but religion, ALL religion, is “not governed by or according to reason.” Religion is based on FAITH–not logic. Anyone here who is going to state that there is a logical basis for their faith, that they can deduce their religion from first principles, is full of it. Religion is based on revelation, on spiritual insight. While it may (or may not) be a valid form of knowledge, it is not reasonable.

There is no rational basis for believing that a Jewish carpenter who got nailed to a stick rose from the dead. Either you beleive it or you don’t. If you do believe it, you’re doing it in hope, in faith, through trust–not through logic.

58

For the record, demons are back in magic, or more accurately, never really left. Off the top of my head, Diabolic Tutor’s a relatively new card. (Note: not Demonic Tutor, which is one they removed). But despite not being actually called demons, there are plenty of Magic cards that could be easily considered such by the sort of people that care:

Stalking Bloodsucker
Grotesque Hybrid
Wayward Angel (A white angel that turns black and gains powers once the game reaches a certain point. Hooboy, they’ll love that one.)

Removing the pentagram from Unholy Strength and rotating out the demons seemed then, and seems even moreso now, an attempt to pacify the magic=satanist crowd while not actually changing much. Once the “coast was clear” things started creeping back to normal.

Much like removing and then restoring the name “Demon” from D&D.

59

You called?

Hmmm. So, us athiests are all a bunch of sluts eh? Cite please!

I bet because the commandment says “thou shalt not kill” and I don’t believe in God, that makes me a murderer too right?
:rolleyes:

60

D’oh! Mods, my post needs an “i”.