In conversation, it seems very common for “progressive” types to casually throw out comments like
“That word probably comes from the time when everyone considered…” (insert obscure ethnic stereotype)
or
“It’s wrong for that show to portray (group 1, stereotype 1). Just imagine if they tried showing (group 2, stereotype 2) or (group 3, stereotype 3)…” on and on and on…
I find that these comments strike a jarring note because I think it’s in bad taste to display encyclopedic knowledge of stereotypes no matter what your politics are. It may be OK if I knew it was a heavy political discussion going in, but I don’t think it’s OK in casual polite company.
I know a few people who seem to secretly get a huge kick out of stereotypes and delight in sanctimoniously repeating them. It feels like passive-aggressiveness. On this topic I almost have more respect for the few real bigots I know because they usually prefer to avoid the subject unless asked directly.
Any thoughts? I’m not speaking as a member of an aggrieved group but I’d like to call out this kind of talk as impolite next time i hear it.
Edit: WHOOPS - this should have been posted in IMHO - please move this
(And remember, you can now do “report this post” on your own posts, which brings it to the attention of the mods quickly. I just happened to be passing by…)
I know some people who indulge in this behavior and other similar ones. I know one person who relishes making the argument “Well, if you don’t support loosening restrictions on DDT, then you just want brown people [yes, the phrase “brown people” is what he uses] in Africa and India to die of malaria.”
It is stupid and often irrelevant to the topic at hand. I am not sure if it’s because they harbor the prejudice themselves and use this oblique method to express it, or if it’s not rather like a form of exhibitionism where they violate taboos in order to shock and upset their interlocutors.
At any rate, you are right: bringing these topics up on the merest pretext of relevance is pretty off-putting.
I am one of those people who believes in the saying “Sunlight is the best disinfectant.” If we want to dismantle negative stereotypes, the first step is pointing them out, and deconstructing them – that is, talking about them.
I can’t fathom how this could be impolite, short of bringing it up in one of those “don’t discuss religion or politics” settings. In which case it’s not that discussing stereotypes is a problem, it’s that discussing politics is.
But if stereotypes come up in conversation, that generally means that the conversation was political to start with.
Great, just what we need, more things for the list of “Trivial Shit That People Get Offended Over And Make Life That Bit More Difficult For The Rest Of Us.”
The way the world is going, the only Approved Conversation Topics will soon be:
Kittens
The Weather
Nothing Else
In a more germane response to the OP, I’d say it’s good that someone has researched the various stereotypes and has an encyclopaedic knowledge of them- because in the course of their research they’ve undoubtedly discovered they’re just that. Stereotypes.
I understand what you mean but I don’t think I’m being overly sensitive. I just don’t like hearing that kind of talk because I think it makes the world a worse place, and it makes me feel disappointed in peoples maturity. Most of these stereotypes would have disappeared by now, if not for for all this obsessive “ironic deconstruction” of them by people who should know better.
Sure, analyzing this crap has its purpose, but I think people should work through all that by college (around the same time they discover Quentin Tarantino). Otherwise it’s in bad taste to bring it up around adults.
That’s just my gut feeling (I probably seem like a real barrel of fun - NOT) but I’m sticking to it…
Unfortunately I do think you’re being overly sensitive. And I don’t like hearing people espousing the point of view you’re espousing because I think that makes the world a worse place.
Not everyone goes to university, you know. In fact, last time I checked, most people don’t have a degree. And university isn’t the magical place of self-discovery, either- at least not for everyone. In most other countries people have that shit sorted out long before they set foot on a university campus.
Thre are different levels of company. In the old days, there were jokes you didn’t tell in mixed company.
The less you are aquainted with people on an intimate level, the more you steer away from a controversal topic.
Religon and Politics are considered taboo for that reason, unless you are on a good aquaintance with someone or are at a party for such. For instance, if you were at a fundraiser for a candidate running for office, then politics certainly is appropriate.
All in all this comes down to, what my mother would refer to as “good taste,” and knowing when to use it
I can’t imagine why you would discuss anything else anyway! What else is there?
I am not sure I understand what the OP means exactly so my own response might make little sense, but here goes…
I don’t mind or find it rude or offensive to discuss stereotypes if that is the topic at hand. Even a “don’t say that, it is stereotypical” isn’t beyond the pale as long as it is not carried too far, because let’s face it many of our standard English words have negative or stereotypical origins, but their meanings have stretched or softened with time. I do find it offensive when people take offense over cromulent words because of their own stereotypes. See also the word “hysterical” and the times MitzeKatze has been chewed out for using it on a different message board to describe something that had nothing to do with women or feminism.
I would also find it rude or offensive if the discussion was actually perpetuating or teaching the stereotype. For example saying something like, “You may not know this, but XXX originated because Xgroup of people saw Ygroup of people doing that and they inferred XYZ and that’s why we…” when it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.
Other than those instances I think it is probably a good thing to discuss the whys and wherefores of stereotypes in order to show why are harmful and why they should not be perpetuated.
I don’t think a misunderstood word here and there is any problem. I guess what I was complaining about, was that some people enjoy interjecting their knowledge of stereotypes a little too much. Sometimes it is creepy and off-putting if somebody knows too much about a certain topic, and this is one of those topics in my opinion. (the lives of serial killers is maybe another). It would creep me out if a person seems to study ethnic stereotypes in their spare time.
I also can’t see how this limits the topics of conversation, unless you’re Carlos Mencia’s friend or something. It’s not THAT ESSENTIAL to any conversations I seem to have, on the contrary I would find it more of a conversation killer.
The OP is a little vague. If it’s just bringing up matter-of-fact origins of ethnic stereotypes, I actually think that’s quite a good way to quash them. Make them boring, even as jokes.
But I have met people who like to talk about ethnic stereotypes in a holier-than-thou way and work off the assumption that they are the least racist person in the room. Sometimes they seem to be protesting too much.
Yeah, but almost nobody actually studies Ethnic Stereotypes in their spare time.
The thing is, one person’s “Knowing too much about Subject X” is another person’s “Person with a healthy interest in Subject X”.
No-one is going to argue that having another person of the same ethnicity as you sidle up to you at a party and whisper conspiratorially over their drink “Hey, whaddabout those members of Ethnicity Y? [Stereotypical racist comment], amiright?” is not only inappropriate but awkard, wrong, etc.
But what I get out of the OP is “People who know more than me about a subject I don’t like are creepy”. And I don’t think that’s fair when you consider that someone could know lots about Battery Hen Farming or Communism or Lepidoptery and be so into it that another person might regard that as “Creepy”.
Or, to put it another way: The OP’s “complaint” is true of many subjects, so it’s really dependent on the context of the situation IMHO.
You’re joking, right? You actually think that ethnic stereotypes are currently given life by people discussing them ironically. I think your views have no substance, and border on the bizarre. I think you are very uncomfortable about something to do with this topic, and this is why you don’t like it being raised. Why does it make you feel so uncomfortable? You don’t give any reason why it is impolite. Your attempt at giving a reason is pure circularity.
And to expand on what **Martini **is saying, you seem to be suggesting that there is something wrong with having an encyclopedic knowledge of something. Yet I’m sure you wouldn’t say it is generally impolite or creepy to display knowledge of something. There has to be something underlying this that you don’t want to say outright.
Oh no! The lives of serial killers (or at least the details of their criminal lives including the murders) is somewhat of a hobby/fascination of mine. I will be very, very careful the next time something reminds me of one one of them, because I do have a tendency to go off on a tangent about them at times.
“That freezer is the same model that Jeffrey Dahmer had in his house, and did you know that he…”
I hope I am not creeping out or putting off any of my friends when my mind jumps to the macabre and my mouth follows.
Well, sure there are some topics I would consider to be a sign of serious immaturity or other problems, and make me feel uncomfortable around that person. I don’t feel that way about hen farming or whatever but I definitely would about, say, someone who records their bowel movements. Same deal about someone who is obsessed with ethnic issues (especially those of groups they don’t belong to).
I don’t think I’m being jealous or threatened or something. I just find that it has gotten very old to talk to people whose eyes absolutely light up at the mention of any “ethnic issue” and go off on some South Park-inspired “ironic” monologue about “stereotypes”. It’s not offensive, it’s just tiresome and usually derails the conversation. I’m just not interested in hearing or talking about that stuff.
Maybe I just run into more annoying people than you do, and that’s what’s causing my issues.
I absolutely do think this! I think the “ironic” pseudo-intellectual types who are obsessed with “stereotypes” and think they are “interesting”, are just secretly getting a big kick out of other peoples’ problems and are not THAT different from the real bigots. (They often effortlessly turn into un-ironic bigots one day anyway - I’ve seen it happen plenty)
Depends on how physically imposing you are… if you aren’t particularly threatening, then no worries.
Possibly. I mean, I’ve personally never encountered the behaviour you’re complaining about in the OP. I don’t know anyone who likes to discuss Ethnic stereotypes in minute detail, but if I did, my reaction to them isn’t going to be “I bet you’re a racist/immature!”, it’s going to be boredom. In the same way I’d be bored listening to a relative who breeds pigeons and hasn’t realised (or doesn’t care) that no-one else is interested in it.
