Eve-Online on a Technical Level

[mswas]

I am going to start with a single question of my own, but this thread is about any and all Eve technical questions.

So someone explain to me Warp Scram/Disrupt.

How does Scan Resolution work into it? How does Targetting work into it?

I want to build a speed tanking drone boat. Ultimately looking toward an Ishtar. Right now I just need to figure out how to protect myself from scrambling, and to do a bit of scrambling myself. I like to work at longer ranges, and I know that I can’t scram at a very close range, so I’m thinking of developing a warp in at a distance, hit enemy hard, warp out when they get close and warp back in at a range again. I tend to fly Gallente drone boats. Right now I am flying a Vexor, but I’ll be moving into a Myrmidon soon, and eventually an Ishtar.

Would tracking disruption help against a warp scramble? The idea here is to be fast enough to keep from getting tackled, while being able to deal out some good DPS at over 40km. With an Ishtar’s massive drone range and cargo space that range would obviously be increased, and the ability to abandon drones would be highly helpful, particularly if they can’t tell the difference between abandoned drones and the ones attacking them in the overview.

[FinnAgain]

Simple:

The speed at which you target a ship is based on your scan resolution, and the signature radius of the ship. EFT lets you calculate exactly how long it will take to lock certain size ships.
Warp disruptors are one point scrams, in that they only have one point of strength and can be defeated by a single warp core stab. They reach out, generally, to roughly twice the range of warp scramblers, which are two point scrams.

You cannot protect against being scrammed if you are within scram range, however. Your plan also won’t work. If you warp in at a distance, any competent nano ship will get away from you. Even an incompetent pilot will simply warp off. Or, if they prefer, get in close enough to scram and web you down. Webs are the real important part, as a web can totally neutralize a nano setup and force you to crawl along very slowly.

A competent pilot should be able to close that 40 km gap in 10 seconds, only 5 of which will be needed to get you into scram range. About 7 or 8 for web range. Much less if they overheat their MWD, scram, or web.

You also seem to be planning on a one-versus-one fight, which almost never can be assured. While you’re hitting your first target hard, a 'ceptor will burn at you, scram and web you, and his buddies will pound you to scrap.

And no, tracking disruptors help only against turrets. Scams are not turrets.
And yes, you can tell the difference between drones that are attacking you and drones that are just floating in space.

All in all, you need to practice actual PvP before you start planning PvP setups, much less with something as expensive as a speed tanked Ishtar.

[FinnAgain]

By the way, here are two sample engagements against a lone speed fit Isthar.

One.
Two.

Interceptor to tackle, Rapier to web, and a DPS boat.
Neither of them ever had a chance.

You can hunt things, solo, in an Ishtar. But like any ship, you have to carefully choose your targets. And, in general, get within scram range while doing your damndest to stay out of neut range. Before you go for a speed fit Ishtar, make sure you not only fully understand the mechanics of PvP, but of drones, capacitor warfare and speed tanking in general.

[mswas]

Well I am actually nowhere near even being able to fly an Ishtar, so don’t worry about me getting out there with an expensive ship and losing it. This thread, as you may have surmised was kind of about my first attempts at learning PvP. I had some good luck in my Vexor against a Pirate who is much much higher in SP than me flying an Ishkur. Had I known what I was doing I might have actually taken him out. As it is I got him to hull.

Thanks for the info though. In about six months when I can even think about acquiring an Ishtar, I’ll hopefully know a bit about PvP.

[mswas]

So what is it you get out of killing noobships? I never really got that one.

[FinnAgain]

@mswas

This thread, as you may have surmised was kind of about my first attempts at learning PvP.

Eeeeh… honestly, the best way to learn to PvP is to buy a bunch of cheap frigates and lose them, one after the other. Knowing something, and viscerally knowing it, are often quite different.

@mswas

I had some good luck in my Vexor against a Pirate who is much much higher in SP than me flying an Ishkur.

Few things… are you sure he was higher in SP, or was he just older? And, AF’s are pretty much crap. The Ishkur is less crap than the others, but it’s still crap. Still, that’s pretty much the right way to go about things, getting into PvP is the best way to learn about PvP.

@mswas

Thanks for the info though. In about six months when I can even think about acquiring an Ishtar, I’ll hopefully know a bit about PvP.

Well, you should probably figure out what role you want to play and then skill up from there. Ishtars are pretty much for nano-based close range knifework where transversal doesn’t effect its drones but does effect turrets trying to track it. If you want a mid-to-long range ship, the Zealot will probably be your baby.

@mswas

So what is it you get out of killing noobships? I never really got that one.

I assume you’re asking about this kill?

If that’s the case, then you should notice a few things from the KM. The first is that it occurred in a 0.0 system. Most of 0.0 space is considered NBSI. The pilot was NB, so I SI. You’ll also notice that RQH is what’s known as a ‘pipe’ system as well as a 0.0 chokepoint. It’s the bridge between mant, which is lowsec, and nullsec as well as the first stop on a pipe that connects to a cluster of systems where the Northern Coalition has seen heavy fighting against BoB as of late. Controlling chokepoints is essential, and keeping ships out of the pipes that aren’t supposed to be there is also essential. Noob ships are just as able to scout as anything else, and giving your enemies more intel is almost always bad.

He happened to be within scan range of a gate, and could have easily relayed intel back to, say, a pirate camp sitting on the RQH gate in Mantenault. Or a hostile bubble camp sitting another jump or two down the pipe.

Then there’s also the fact that noob ships can carry cargo and people (sometimes) use them to transport really valuable loot, hoping that nobody would gank a noob ship. Of course, shuttles, inties and cloakers are much more likely to have delicious loot, but noob ships are worth popping.

Then, of course, there’s nothing more boring than camping a gate for long periods of time, and making something explode is pretty much always more fun than not making something explode. For that reason, even if I was in lowsec and saw a ship I could kill that wasn’t on a gate, I’d kill it. No real reason beyond the fact that popping player ships is at least a bit more interesting than popping rats.

[mswas]

@FinnAgain

Eeeeh… honestly, the best way to learn to PvP is to buy a bunch of cheap frigates and lose them, one after the other. Knowing something, and viscerally knowing it, are often quite different.

Well asking an intellectual question about how items work doesn’t mean I’m NOT doing PvP also. As the title shows this was asking some technical questions, which I appreciate your succinct answer on.

Few things… are you sure he was higher in SP, or was he just older? And, AF’s are pretty much crap. The Ishkur is less crap than the others, but it’s still crap. Still, that’s pretty much the right way to go about things, getting into PvP is the best way to learn about PvP.

Yeah, he definitely has more SP. He flies a Megathron normally.

Well, you should probably figure out what role you want to play and then skill up from there. Ishtars are pretty much for nano-based close range knifework where transversal doesn’t effect its drones but does effect turrets trying to track it. If you want a mid-to-long range ship, the Zealot will probably be your baby.

Haven’t looked at the Zealot yet. I like drone boats. I’m flying a Vexor now and moving toward a Myrmidon while pimping my drone skills. I’m close to T2 drones. My corp-mate is gonna build me a Myrmidon I just need to acquire the Mins for it.

I assume you’re asking about this kill?

If that’s the case, then you should notice a few things from the KM. The first is that it occurred in a 0.0 system. Most of 0.0 space is considered NBSI. The pilot was NB, so I SI. You’ll also notice that RQH is what’s known as a ‘pipe’ system as well as a 0.0 chokepoint. It’s the bridge between mant, which is lowsec, and nullsec as well as the first stop on a pipe that connects to a cluster of systems where the Northern Coalition has seen heavy fighting against BoB as of late. Controlling chokepoints is essential, and keeping ships out of the pipes that aren’t supposed to be there is also essential. Noob ships are just as able to scout as anything else, and giving your enemies more intel is almost always bad.

He happened to be within scan range of a gate, and could have easily relayed intel back to, say, a pirate camp sitting on the RQH gate in Mantenault. Or a hostile bubble camp sitting another jump or two down the pipe.

Then there’s also the fact that noob ships can carry cargo and people (sometimes) use them to transport really valuable loot, hoping that nobody would gank a noob ship. Of course, shuttles, inties and cloakers are much more likely to have delicious loot, but noob ships are worth popping.

Then, of course, there’s nothing more boring than camping a gate for long periods of time, and making something explode is pretty much always more fun than not making something explode. For that reason, even if I was in lowsec and saw a ship I could kill that wasn’t on a gate, I’d kill it. No real reason beyond the fact that popping player ships is at least a bit more interesting than popping rats.

Heh, I see. Yea, I’ve carried loot in a noob ship before. What does NBSI and RQH stand for?

Just FYI, I’m rooting for you all over BoB. I want to see Max Damage be the crucible upon which the Empire is smashed.

[FinnAgain]

@mswas

What does NBSI and RQH stand for?

RQH was the system I killed the noobship in.
NBSI is Not Blue, Shoot It.
The other 0.0 ROE is NRDS, which is Not Red, Don’t Shoot.

NBSI is far more common.

Then again, virtually everything I’ve just said in the last few posts is now pretty much going to be immaterial in about a month. If you see a cheap domination warp scram, grab it. Of course, they’ve already all been cleared off the market…

[mswas]

Yeah, the changes seem like they actually make sense. A warp scram should work against an MWD.

[mswas]

How do skills stack? When you have multiple modifiers to the same attribute does it put all the percentages together and then modify the base multiplier?
Like for a hammerhead drone:
24 damage
1.6 damage modifier
Drone Int
Vexor bonus

How is that all configured?

[FinnAgain]

TBH, I have no idea. EVE math has always baffled me a bit.

My best advice would be to open your copy of EFT and right click on your drones. Right click on them, and you can play with “change affecting skill”. For modifying the kill at the hull you’re flying though, I believe you’ll need to manually alter your character’s skill level via the Character Editor.

The bonuses for Sentries for instance, I believe, work roughly as (damage modifier X base damage) (Drone Interfacing %) (hull bonus). At least, an All V’s character using a Mega with a flight of Garde II’s will do 300 damage and an Ishtar with the same pilot will do 450.

[counsel_wolf]

@FinnAgain

TBH, I have no idea. EVE math has always baffled me a bit.

Chiming in in support of this. playing with EFT is the only way I can understand WTF is going to happen with new skills/fittings. The new DPS graph feature is also great to play with as it shows you the effect of sig radius and traversal on dps.

Also, zealots are awesome and worth training for,well flown they can kill most of the cruiser or smaller common pvp ships. That said I normally recommend training for a battleship that rats/missions well first, to provide you with the income to be able to lose ships. If you like drones, a Dominix would be a reasonable choice. 5 heavy drones mince BS rats pretty well.

[FinnAgain]

@counsel wolf

The new DPS graph feature is also great to play with as it shows you the effect of sig radius and traversal on dps.

Have you actually figured out how to get the graph working? I’ve only used the fitting tool for ship loadouts, and couldn’t even figure out how the heck to use the graph function. I am an EFT noob, I suppose.

@counsel wolf

If you like drones, a Dominix would be a reasonable choice. 5 heavy drones mince BS rats pretty well.

Depending on what you’re ratting/what missions you’re running, the Ishtar is actually far superior. It gets the 50% drone bonus naturally and in less time than BS V takes, and with its T2 resists, Guristas and Serpentis rats are a joke. Although, of course, in order to get the most out of it you need to rig it, and it is uninsurable… so you should only use it to rat or run missions if you’re sure of how to pilot it and if you’ve checked out the missions on EVE Survival.

Actually, in a great many situations, a cloaking Ishtar is the ultimate ninja ratter, especially if you give it a full flight or two of Sentires. Speaking of which, if you like drones, you’ll want to train to T2 Sentires eventually.

[counsel_wolf]

@FinnAgain

Have you actually figured out how to get the graph working? I’ve only used the fitting tool for ship loadouts, and couldn’t even figure out how the heck to use the graph function. I am an EFT noob, I suppose.

You need to have both ship fittings open, then hit file-> new dps graph. After this right click in the blank white square to the right of the window chose which ship will be the attacker then right click again to select a target. Horribly non-intuitive (and a bit buggy, it seems to have issues with drone boats, but i can look at rokh vs crow dps charts for example)

@FinnAgain

Depending on what you’re ratting/what missions you’re running, the Ishtar is actually far superior. It gets the 50% drone bonus naturally and in less time than BS V takes, and with its T2 resists, Guristas and Serpentis rats are a joke. Although, of course, in order to get the most out of it you need to rig it, and it is uninsurable… so you should only use it to rat or run missions if you’re sure of how to pilot it and if you’ve checked out the missions on EVE Survival.

Actually, in a great many situations, a cloaking Ishtar is the ultimate ninja ratter, especially if you give it a full flight or two of Sentires. Speaking of which, if you like drones, you’ll want to train to T2 Sentires eventually.

This is all possibly true (I’m a rokh/raven pilot so I know little of these drones of which you speak ) but the level of training/isk involved in getting an ishtar on the road vs a basic wood grain space whale (aka dominix) is vast. I was suggesting the domi as something a new player can train towards on a 1-2 month schedule in order to give themselves a ship they can earn serious isk with. With Tech II tanking mods (which have low training requirements like repair systems IV) I was able to cobble together a domi in EFT that does around 400 dps and tanks 700 (assuming sansha damage spread, the tank vs angels would be worse, blood raiders slightly better), without having gallente BS V or tech II heavies.

[FinnAgain]

@counsel wolf

You need to have both ship fittings open, then hit file-> new dps graph. After this right click in the blank white square to the right of the window chose which ship will be the attacker then right click again to select a target. Horribly non-intuitive (and a bit buggy, it seems to have issues with drone boats, but i can look at rokh vs crow dps charts for example)

Ahh, thanks. I noticed the graph feature in a semi-recent update but couldn’t be bothered to play with it enough to puzzle it out. Cheers.

@counsel wolf

I was suggesting the domi as something a new player can train towards on a 1-2 month schedule in order to give themselves a ship they can earn serious isk with.

Well… if they have a couple months, the Ishtar can be had in roughly 80 days, with support skills that’ll be required anyways, somewhere along the line. A new pilot should be able to be in a Domi in roughly 8 days. Although, of course, the Ishtar’s train can be cut down significantly with a head full of 4’s.

It’s a trade off, of course, but with the stealth Arazu/Lachesis buff, I’d argue that training Gallente Cruiser V is a very good investment right now.

[mswas]

I’m flying a Myrmidon with T2 Valkyries currently. I could be in a Battleship shortly. Getting the money to afford it is the difficult part. I’ll probably get a Megathron. If I were going to do a drone boat, I’d go Ishtar like he says. I have Gallente Cruiser IV so getting up to V is pretty easy.

[counsel_wolf]

@mswas

I’m flying a Myrmidon with T2 Valkyries currently. I could be in a Battleship shortly. Getting the money to afford it is the difficult part. I’ll probably get a Megathron. If I were going to do a drone boat, I’d go Ishtar like he says. I have Gallente Cruiser IV so getting up to V is pretty easy.

Megathrons are nice ships, but you really need to have tech II rails/blasters to get the best out of them.

[counsel_wolf]

@FinnAgain

It’s a trade off, of course, but with the stealth Arazu/Lachesis buff, I’d argue that training Gallente Cruiser V is a very good investment right now.

My preferences run to caldari cruiser V for falcons (mostly too low dps to solo with but no gang will turn you down if you offer to fly with them) or amarr for the Zealot (although I suspect this one will be next against the wall for nerfing). You do get a lot of playstyle variety out of gallente cruiser V though.

[FinnAgain]

@counsel wolf

My preferences run to caldari cruiser V for falcons (mostly too low dps to solo with but no gang will turn you down if you offer to fly with them) or amarr for the Zealot (although I suspect this one will be next against the wall for nerfing). You do get a lot of playstyle variety out of gallente cruiser V though.

My bet, actually, would be that it’s the Falcon that gets nerfed next, if the whiners have their way. We’re actually already seeing many of the same complaints that led to CCP’s spaz attack that nerfed speed and totally restructured all of EVE’s PVP dynamics. Falcons are unbalanced because 1 on 1, almost no ship has a chance to catch them without doing special things like fitting ECCM. Falcons can avoid combat whenever they like by staying at 250 km range, cloaking and/or jamming their opponents. To catch a Falcon, you need specialized gang composition and a Drakeblob won’t do it. The Falcon is becoming the default choice for support in roaming gangs, and anybody who wants to be competitive in PvP will have at least one in their gang etc, etc, etc…

The Zealot is a good support sniper (but probably beat by the pulseapoc, actually since its tracking is nearly equal to the Zealot’s when signature radius is factored in), but in its role as a pulse laser fit DPS boat, it’s awesome. For what it’s worth I hope they don’t nerf it, but it’s possible. My money is still on the Falcon to be the next to get hit with a nerf bat.

@counsel wolf

Megathrons are nice ships, but you really need to have tech II rails/blasters to get the best out of them.

And they’re also not very good mission ships… although their ability to use heavies is awesome sauce. Still, turrets require ammo, and turrets have trouble hitting targets that drones/missiles do not, and they can’t select damage type. The Mega is an awesome fleet ship, and a great gank boat, but not a good mission ship.

[FinnAgain]

Speaking of ratting Ishtars… there are better PvP fits out there, by far, but the ultimate PvE fit for an Ishtar, I’d argue, is:

Highs:
250mm Railgun II, Iron M charges loaded (only used to get aggro)
2X Tractor beams
2X Salvagers

Mids:
5X Cap Recharger II’s

Lows:
Depending on opposition, either
2X Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II
2X Medium Armor Repper

or
3X mission specific hardeners
2X MAR

Rigs:
2X Auxiliary Nano Pump

It can permarun both MAR’s, against Serpentis or Guristas you can actually fit the EANM II tank and tank some ungodly ammount like 950+ DPS, more than enough for all belt rats (including officer spawns) and almost all mission rooms. Even against Blood/Sansha/Angel, its tank is superb and its drones allow for semi-AFK missioning or, at least, lazy ratting. T2 sentires make you a beast, enabling close to 500 DPS without the need to get a single charge of ammo, ever.

If ninjaing it, a cloak instead of a tractor or salvager does just fine, and you should have the grid/cpu left for a small solace remote repper in case your drones get damaged.