Well, lookee here. A whole thread devoted to my post in the “rejection” thread. Oldscratch, you’ll make me famous yet!
Gee, so much to respond to… I’m going to hit a few key points which occurred to me as I read this. Here goes:
First and foremost, let none of you defenders of jjj lose sight of the fact that you’re defending a self-confessed liar. I don’t mean that to sound over-dramatic, but it really is as the very foundation of this discussion. If you’re comfortable with that, let’s move on.
jjj, I’ve got a question about some things you wrote in your post, namely:
“I don’t really know why we did this… I guess it’s a little cruel.” And: “I’ve grown up since then and learned the error of my ways.”
It sounds like even YOU think you did something wrong. Yes? So, since Bear_Nenno, Zette, yojimbo and xizor seem to think you are utterly blameless, I hope that you will correct them in their mistaken opinion.
- Regarding the “outrageous occupations” that so many of you find transparently bogus… maybe in the provincial burgs where you guys come from, female construction workers and male seamstresses are far-fetched, but let me assure you, where I live they are not. Maybe that’s why so many of you are so quick to defend jjj, because saying a woman is a pipelayer is as utterly absurd as saying she’s from Jupiter.
But, my point of reference is different. To give you an example, a hot, cute miniskirt-wearing former colleague of mine was… a zookeeper. No shit. She told me all sorts of – utterly true – stories about feeding elephants and dealing with bears. I also know a friend of a friend who is a full-time toy inventor. Another friend of mine wrote one Broadway musical and has another scheduled to open next year. People like these – who all you jjj defenders would think are blowing smoke up your ass – are very common here in NYC. In fact, I could probably list a half dozen things I’ve done MYSELF that would have some of you walking away calling me a bullshit artist. Yet they’d all be true.
And one more thing, jjj. When you go pulling some guy’s chain about being a pipelayer, what does that do to the credibility of some woman who actually IS one? I bet you wouldn’t have the nerve to claim that you were, say, a wounded war vet, especially if your father was one. It would be sort of an insult to him, right? Well, I’ll bet a REAL female pipelayer has to put up with some serious macho hazing shit so she can feed her kids. But thanks to you, she’ll get laughed off the next barstool because “everyone knows there no such thing as a woman pipelayer.”
- Now, oldscratch (I really DO like your name. Devil’s advocate and all, eh?), you seem to think that strangers – only by virtue of the fact that they are strangers – are not entitled to be told the truth. (You wrote “They asked them, and the women lied. So what?!?”) If this is REALLY how you feel, let’s close this thread right now because we’ll never agree.
I, however, feel, if there is no risk to myself or others, strangers are entitled to be told the truth – whether asking me for the time, or directions, or even what I do for a living. (Under your “ask me no questions, I’ll tell you no lies” policy you’d have no quams misdirecting a lost tourist down the wrong street, I suppose.)
If I was uncomfortable with a stranger’s question – as jjj is entitled to feel when guys approached her – I would not lie; I’d change the subject, or say it’s none of their business. But that’s not what jjj did; as I said before, she made sport out of their ignorance.
As for the whole “hey, it’s a bar – anything goes, lies be damned” attitude… I personally find it repugnant (the attitude, not the bar!). Let’s face it, bars (parties and clubs, too) are very major male-female interactivity spots. Dishonesty poisons the already-stressful relationship between the sexes. To make it excusable in the number one meeting venue can only make a bad situation worse.
Lastly, a lot of the excuses being made on jjj’s behalf concern the question of harm, and the degree of harm… namely, that the dupes were not insulted, or that they were not insulted very much. (Oldscratch seems to feel that even if they were, screw 'em – it’s their own fault. Oldscratch, there seems to be no hope for you, I’m afraid.)
I think all of you – especially jjj – should think long and hard about this before you conclude that no harm was done. Read this board. Read the original “rejection” thread. Read about how people feel when they found out that someone asked them out on a date on a dare – THIRTY YEARS AGO. Or when someone called them ugly. Or fat. And not just by classmates, or coworkers, but by total strangers – who they still remember because of one mean comment.
When you’re through with those, read the thread by the terrified guy who wanted our advice about how to muster up the courage to ask a girl out. Then imagine that he gets up the courage – and you’re the girl, jjj.
NOW do you think it’s harmless to fuck with his head?