Except that women do not act like flaming gay men.
Hmmm, room with a bunch of jocks…sounds like fun to me!!!
Background: I consider myself a straight ally. I was a member of my high school’s Gay-Straight Alliance, participated in a small handful of National Days of Silence, and have volunteered for a great LGBT resource center in Tucson called Wingspan, bugging people to send money (for a good cause!). I’ve attended a lot of classes with, watched a lot of movies with, ate a lot of meals with and smoked a lot of drugs (back in my wilder days; see “high school” and “Tucson” above) with LGBT people. The two most flambuoyant men I ever knew were straight-as-an-arrow twins who were actually pretty closed-minded folk, but generated a cult of personality among the wimmenfolk of the high school which centered upon them in the same admiring, nudgy-winky-yet-hopelessly-platonic way that can envelop gay males in similarly enlightened cities and schools.
I can think of a small handful* of other vaguely flambuoyant men I’ve known in my life. I don’t have any cites, but a blog by Eric S. Raymond and some cites that said blog linked to, once explained the combined stereotypical phenomena of gay male flambuoyancy and gay female bulldykeism by saying that people are attracted to the same traits whether they’re heterosexual or homosexual. That is, men want a pretty (not handsome), well-groomed, thin-but-healthy, bouncy partner (be it male or female); women want an intelligent, overachieving partner with personality characteristics that hint of a propensity towards being a caring father, with less importance given to looks and grooming (be it male or female). I don’t know how much validity this holds, being neither a social scientist nor gay. There are certainly tons of exceptions–but then again, there are lots of exceptions in heterosexuality, and that doesn’t mean that the above aren’t the traits American heterosexuals generally look for in their mates.
As far as personal experience goes, I’ve never consciously known a gay male couple. The only female-female couples I’ve known were generally made up of self-identified bisexuals at the time, although a few of the girls involved have since come out as fully lesbian, and the girls involved were generally pretty feminine and traditionally beautiful with only a few notable exceptions. The least traditionally feminine I can think of, once gave this straight man loving and passionate oral sex, so I don’t know what to make of all of that.
matt_mcl, I have nothing to say, other than this: well-said. I have a great deal of respect for you–not specifically because of your stance on flambuoyancy, but I just think this is an appropriate thread to tell you that. Kudos.
*Ba-doom-bisscchh! Thank you, I’ll be here all week.
Not to hijack, but you may find this article fascinating. We now return to your regularly scheduled thread.
To sort of answer the OP…I tend to agree that it’s mostly just in a persons nature. Ever since I was young I had fairly femme mannerisms. My mom started asking me to butch it up when I was about 15, but it didn’t take. hehe. As an adult I’m not extremely femme, but consider myself rather middle of the road. I know a lot of people are hoping for a ‘reason’, but in general I would have to say there isn’t one.
Exactly – and when a woman does so, it’s said she’s acting like a gay man/like a drag queen.
Really, it’s just using “woman” or “effeminate” as a catch-all for “not up to the standard of men,” and it’s terribly sexist on top of everything.
shrug Well, the way I read the OP, it was more ripe for the second. after all, we were talking about “effeminate”/“flaming” men. It wasn’t any sort of specific cultural activity or trait such as liking Liza Minelli or being able to do good hair, or even lisping or something, that I could possibly postulate some kind of origin for.
And let me say it’s the second I have had to deal with far, far more often than the first. Nobody’s ever threatened to kill me because I was being “loud” or “obnoxious.” They have threatened to kill me because I was standing quietly twenty metres away waiting for the metro and holding a purse.
I used to be on the Board Of Directors of the Gay Leather Club in Berlin (MSB), Germany. If you think you have a problem, you should have heard those guys…any “flamboyant” tone in your voice or appearance and you were not included. Period. Every guy in the club sounded like he smoked six packs of Camels before breakfast and looked like he came out of San Quentin two weeks ago.
I mention that to show there is prejudice even within the Gay “community” against flamboyancy.
And yet that same club would have an annual Easter event and who would they have perform? Drag queens.
Personally, I have met guys who speak “normally” all day, but after a few drinks with friends and in the right situation, suddenly started speaking like Miss Scarlett and many were as witty as Oscar Wilde and others were as bitchy as Joan Collins on Dynasty. I have met other guys who were always “flamboyant” when speaking.
As others have mentioned, it is no different than hearing someone with a strong southern accent, and then finding out they have lived in NYC for twenty years! The only reason they would still have that accent is because they were proud of who they were and saw no reason to change their mannerisms, no matter what people think. More power to them, and the same goes for the “flamboyant” guys.
I can relate. A friend likened it to how her mother, an Americanized British import, slowly got her British accent back while talking to her sister who still lived in the UK. Another factor is that in certain milieux I can let my guards down a bit more.
Next time you should make sure they match your shoes! :smack:
Marc
The worst is that it did.
Perhaps they just have something against the metro. The only time anyone ever attempted to assault me, outside of a schoolyard fight, was to get my wallet and nothing against me personally. I admit that when I see things I’m not accustomed to I’ll at least look twice but I have a difficult time understanding why someone would be incited to violence by an unusual sight. I’m guessing these were young men in their late teens to mid twenties?
I admit that I have chuckled a few times when I’ve met people who loved up to the gay male stereotype. Not that it happens often, I’m always surprised when I meet someone who fits the stereotypical mold, and since it catches me off guard I find myself strangely amused. My jaw dropped the first time I turned on the televison and saw Christopher Lowell because I honestly thought it was suppose to be a comedy sketch at first.
The last flamboyant homosexual male I met was at a Star Trek convention in Dallas and then again at a science fiction convention in the same city. I’ve know some straight men who had feminine characteristics, or if not feminine then decidedly unmanly, so I don’t think that’s a reliable indication of sexuality. I live in a straightcentric world and usually someone has to walk up to me with a flashing neon sign saying “Gay” before I get the message but this guy wore the little rainbows and he was working a booth at the Star Trek convention raising charity for AIDs victims. Perhaps that’s not concrete evidence but I could put two and two together.
Anyway, we talked for a while about general science fiction stuff and Star Trek, and it didn’t bother me one bit. He was a nice guy, we shared a common interest, and I didn’t think his behavior degraded him or gaydom in general. The truth is we can find stereotypical examples of any group be they hillbillies from the Ozarks, rural blacks in Mississipi, or white anglo-saxon folks in Boston.
So why should people change their behavior if they’re not hurting anyone else?
Marc
Amen!
And on the subject, does anyone think when calling customer service and listening to their voice, "that person is black, or that person is Hispanic, or that person is from New Jersey or that person is a flamer?
Same thing…who give a flyingfuck? Just give me the information and thankyoulord I am speaking to a real person and not a recorded list of options.
My feelings are all over the board on this question. I believe that gay men who put on the swish (as opposed to the swagger) are emulating their role models as well. It’s no big deal and I don’t let it bother me. I also know straight men who I’d swear, judging by the effeminate voice and mannerisms, were gay.
I guess I’ll have to wait to hear from the gay guys…did you talk with an effeminate voice when you were a kid? A 'Tween? A young teen? My guess is that it is acquired for various reasons. It simply doesn’t matter.
– Signed the straight chick who swears like a longshoreman
I think those are legitimate and interesting questions. Why indeed does someone like sports? What indeed makes someone tick? It bothers me only when the questions are rhetorical, as in “Why do you have to be such a workaholic all the time?” That’s different from, “I mean no offense, but what is it about working long hours that you find satisfying?” That’s a question from someone who doesn’t understand the mindset, but wants to. And that’s how the OP came across to me. He very carefully disclaimed any and all ulterior motives, and just wanted information. The tone and timbre of the thread has greatly improved now, though. Good infromation is coming in.
If you can believe it, my voice was even higher back then! 
Seriously, I do recall being critiqued for some of my mannerisms back in the day. In the main, as a kid I was very androgynous and didn’t do either girl’s things or boy’s things, just geek things – reading, drawing, stuffed animals, no sports or what have you.
A few vignettes, included mainly for the humour value:
- when I was six, I had a dollhouse, but no dolls… just the furniture, which I would rearrange. Make what you will of this.
- when I was ten, I begged my parents to take me to see Phantom in Toronto. And we went.
- I also loved art galleries and sat through a number of operas that you didn’t usually see pre-teens at.
Anyway the point was, as a child and into my teen years I pretty much had no concept of gender roles, except in the abstract, and did what I wanted to without regard to (or really, knowledge of) whether it was considered “boy stuff,” until and unless someone took it upon themselves to inform me of it forcibly.
Happily, that continues to this day.
Oh, I know, which is why I disclaimed any attack on him. But people should see all sides and understand that “Why are we, in particular, always being asked this question?” is an interesting question and that, as someone said, 99% of the time the question is not asked with pure motives.
And besides, as I say, I don’t know if there’s much insight I can contribute into why I have some personality traits and not others.
Thank you all for your replies, and I think I’ve learned a lot. I’ve done a bit of introspective thinking (I may do too much of it) and I think I’ve clairified my own thoughts enough to reply to the OP with the benefit of your answers.
I think what I was asking was, why some gay men acted femme. Now knowing that this type of behavior is simply innate in some men answers that question to a good degree.
I had assumed that this type of behavior was learned and practiced by all femmes, and I see this isn’t so. Those who do learn and practice it…I think my uncomfortable feelings were that a person doing so was asking for trouble by hateful individuals, and I couldn’t understand that type of willingness to invite abuse. Now I see that doing so is an expression of who you are, not simply a way of drawing attention to yourself. I think/hope that my feelings of being uncomfortable around this guy will subside now that I’ve identified them, but if you wish I will keep you updated.
I also see that I’ve used the word think at least 500 times, which means I need a thesaurus.
I think there are a couple of reasons. One, it is such a mystery to so many people. It is a happenstance of fortune (or misfortune perhaps) that homosexuals comprise a small minority of the general population, which tends to make them both mysterious and interesting especially to people who haven’t known them personally or had the opportunity to study the matter. And two, it is so profoundly unfamiliar in a very real subjective way to so many of us that it is doubly mysterious. Granted, intellectually I can concede that your preferences are as they are, but emotionally it is very difficult to grasp (as I’m sure my own preferences are to some gay men). Part of the reason Straight Dope has been so valuable to me is that it has given me insight into matters about which I had been so naive all my life, from homosexuality to atheism, even though I was myself an atheist at one point. But mine was a hardcore hand-stabbing atheism. I did not know that soft atheists existed. Anyway, I can understand your suspicions of peoples’ motives and whatnot as well, especially given the suffering you (or other gays) have endured at the hands of bashers for so long. So, it’s cool if you bristle at the questions. And I thank you for returning to answer them.
Liberal,
Thanks for saying what I would have said if I had thought to do so. You’ve pretty well just summed up my motives and thoughts here, as well as my feelings towards the Dope. In future, I will just send all of my messages through you to make them all smart sounding and stuff. 
As a straight male, I sometimes envy the Flamboyant Gay as well as women just because they get to be so expressive. I have to admit, when I’m alone or with someone VERY close to me, I enjoy the occasional moment when I can slip into Valley Girl mode and declare, “Oh my God, what-ever!” It’s one of my forbidden pleasures. We all have our inner Valley Girl that we need to let out from time to time.
I tend to think of feminine people as being very sweet and nuturing people, so I enjoy their expressiveness.
Perhaps we mean different things when we hear the term “flamboyant.” I don’t consider flamboyant men feminine at all. Although some of them claim to be so, their actions are not similar to feminine gays, but are in their own catagory. I’ve known both feminine and flamboyant gays and to me there is a distinct divide between the two. I can not stand being in a room full of flamming queens for a very long time, on the other hand, I have a lot of feminine gay friends I enjoy hanging around.