Fat people

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Mainly, I want to address the anti-American sentiment I’m seeing in webmastr’s posts.

First off, webmastr presents himself as some kind of “citizen of the world” by virtue of his travels, thus qualifying him to judge all the nations of the world. “Fat Americans” seem particularly hideous in his eyes.

I’ve traveled around quite a bit too. A lot of my traveling was while I was in the military, which meant I was often on American bases while abroad; but I also got off base and into society, observed, and even lived in the local societies in some cases. And in some cases I went abroad on business trips or as part of cultural exchanges. I spent six-month tours in each of the following: Japan, Korea, Okinawa, and Germany. I spent shorter times (six weeks to two months) in the Philippines, Australia, and the old Soviet Union. I’ve also traveled on short trips around other parts of the Far East, the central part of Western Europe, and Canada, Mexico, and the Caribbean.

What are my own observations? Yes, I agree that there’s a stereotype that Americans are generally a bit beefier, stockier, and broader than citizens most other nations. Big deal. That’s on a par with the stereotype that Europeans are jaded, don’t shower enough, and have bad teeth. There’s more than a kernel of truth to both stereotypes, but those stereotypes shouldn’t define a country or give anyone reason to dislike their people abroad.

Okay, so the U.S. is in the lead of most industrialized nations in terms of percentage of citizens who are obese. (Although, for example, West Germany is close behind, and East Germany is ahead of us - here are some stats: http://www.obesite.chaire.ulaval.ca/IOTF.htm – see the tables mid-way down the page).

Nonetheless, having traveled quite a bit, I’m much less concerned by obesity in America than I am by some cultural manifestations I’ve seen outside America: Cultural homogeneity and collective mentalities; lack of regard for individual rights and minorities; lackluster economic structures which artificially keep citizens poorer, and so on. All told, I think that focusing on obesity as a reason to dislike America is a red herring. webmastr, if you intend to express your dislike for America, then I would think you could find a better reason.

And is obesity such a sin? It’s true that it’s an accelerating problem, especially among children. Kids are spending more and more time in sedentary pursuits (TV, video games, and surfing the net) at the expense of sports. It’s also true that there are financial and health costs related to rising obesity. On the other hand, obesity is still not a national crisis by a long shot. At the national level, life expectancies continue to rise in America due to better eating habits overall (even among the obese) and medical advances. Obesity is a quality-of-life issue for the individual, but it’s not a national crisis.

Should it become a national crisis, there are remedies. In the sixties, the American government pushed for more exercise and better health in schools and other venues, and it resulted in improved health (universal phys-ed classes in schools, fitness councils, etc.). In the eighties, the government pushed for improvements in geriatric health, and there were improvements there as well (increased awareness that old people could maintain their health into their later years, malls opening early so that old folks can do group walks in them in inclement weather, and so on). Should obesity eventually be deemed a national crisis, there are a number of ways to address the problem on multiple levels—individually, socially, and through the government.

webmastr, you say that you don’t like obese people who whine about being obese and then do nothing about it. Fine, neither do I. However, people all over the world whine about lots of things and do nothing about them. Why focus on obesity? And why put down all of America because of that one aspect?

I can understand that you are struck by the difference in the weights of citizens when you travel from the Far East (with a low incidence of obesity) to America (with one of the higher percentages in the world). But when I travel the reverse route, I too am struck by a number of cultural and social aspects of life in the Far East which I perceive as negative and even harmful. But at least I have the good sense not to make a fool of myself ranting about them publicly and taking the problems personally. I take each country as it comes (when in Rome, make like a Roman), and I don’t expect those countries to be and act and live like Americans.

Meantime, I’m an American. I’m a big, strong, beefy, healthy, solid bastard myself, and I LIKE “excess, waste, and gluttony.” Yes, we have a higher percentage of obese people here then elsewhere, and some of them even whine about it a bit. But I don’t consider it a major inconvenience or a reason to dislike America.

If you are having such an unpleasant experience in America due to the minor cultural aspect of weight differences between countries, then you can solve the problem yourself: Please limit your travels to destinations outside our borders.

What I have found interesting is the apparent size increase of second generation children versus their immigrant parents. This has been especially evident in the Southeast Asians I know, ie: Vietnamese children several inches taller than their parents, to the point of closing in on “average American” height. If this is accurate, I would assume an improved diet during childhood would contribute. After all, like the other Seven Deadly Sins, “gluttony” is “well-nourished” taken to the extreme.

Have there been any “real” statistics to back up or contradict this observation? Or am I just noticing the exceptions and projecting my own prejudices about first world vs third world diets?

Maybe they don’t want to! Maybe they LIKE being fat! Maybe they, and their lovers and bosses and spouses, have no problems with the size of their body! There are men out there who prefer larger women. I’m a girl who likes big guys. Just because you have some sort of issue with fat people does not mean they all have to change immediatly.

You know, the more I read this thread, the more mad I get. You don’t live in the US. You don’t know what it’s like to pick up a fashion magazine and see some unreachable Kate Moss-like wrathe whose beauty and skinniness make you hate yourself. Maybe you see a lot of fat people walking around, but in reality we are inundated by media, television, magazines, and movies telling us to be skinny. Look at Jennifer Anniston, or the girls in Ally McBeal. That’s the standard we are held to.

Women today are expected to be smart, educated, with an excellent job, as well as beautiful and thin and healthy, and perfect mothers to boot. If you read ANY beauty magazine, or watch any tv show, you will see the image forced down our throats to be perfect in every way. I have friends who are absolutely beautiful, perfect in their own right, and kind, caring, generous, sweet, funny and smart, who tear themselves down nonstop because of their weight - and in most cases, they are not overweight in the slightest. That’s what disgusts me about Americans, not the size of their asses. And I constantly find myself not being the one to buy into the Beauty Myth - the one who says, “No A, you are NOT fat,” or, “NO, L, there is nothing wrong with your nose.” It sickens and disgusts me every goddamn day of my life that people are written off because they aren’t perfect, because they are human, and it pisses me off that I’m supposed to somehow apologize for just being me, for loving myself and my body because you find it disgusting.

No one is going to read this thread, smack themselves on the forehead, and say, “Oh MY GOD! I don’t have to be fat!” If that was your intent, that you failed miserably.

Okay, you get around a bit, so this validates your bullshit eh.

…:rolleyes:

So here you’re saying, “fuck genetics?” I don’t want to get into a nature vs. nurture debate here, but genetics are very determinate of a person’s set point weight. For instance people can starve themselves then their metabolism goes down. They can eat like crazy and their metabolism goes up. But it all roughly evens out at a set point determined by your genetic framework. Genetics play a large role in a person’s weight. Quit feeding your stereotypes and start feeding your brain, fucker.

You seem to be inferring here that food portions are the main problem with “fat people” in the US. But your one-track-supposed-porno-film-star-weak-ignorant-mind can’t see that the issue is a multiple-variable problem. Hey dickhead, didja ever think to realize that a large part of the problem is cultural. Are you culturally conditioned by TV shows, movies, fairy tales, porno movies, magazines etc. to think that thin people are better adjusted, smarter, stronger people. Surprise! --As numerous studies have shown—there is No correlation. What you seem to see as attractive is not correlated with inner strength, mental health, or even self-esteem. Go to Egypt, there big is beautiful! Men there scoff at thin westernish models the way you scoff at fat people. This is a result of cultural conditioning!

Another part of it is society. Take many Spanish-speaking countries for instance: Their larger meals are earlier in the day when your metabolism is higher and most people walk everywhere which makes for a generally speaking fitter society than the US. Whereas here in the US the larger meals are traditionally later in the day…a lotta people eat a big dinner, then sit in front of the TV, and yeah, a lot of that turns to fat.

Statistically speaking–to the latest studies I could find–approximately 30 million Americans are obese (their weight is 20% more than optimal for their age, sex and body). Considering there are well over 200 million people residing in the US that’s really NOT a large percentage of the population.

I could go on…but the bottom line here, webmaster, is expand your mind a little. I know it feels nice and snug with your head firmly planted up your ass, but either stick it in further or pull it out!

Biggirl, I stand by my statement. If you found the phrase ‘5 piece fried chicken meal from Popeye’s’ to be offensive then replace it with any of the following:
[ul][li]Huge salad covered in 1/2 cup of ranch dressing[/li][li]Smothered pork chops with mashed potatoes[/li][li]Chicken fried steak with fried corn-on-the-cob[/li][li]Seven (you pick the combo) items from Taco bell[/ul][/li]You see, this is her (my mother-in-law’s) typical week’s worth of dinners. If this is what she wants to eat, fine. I really couldn’t care less. But what pisses me off is almost everyday I have to listen to her whine about how she tries so hard to lose weight! I mean, she actually wonders why she can’t shed the pounds!

I wasn’t trying to perpetuate a stereotype so I’ve given you a few options to use in lieu of the fried chicken bit. And besides, it’s not a stereotype in this case; it’s what actually happens on a weekly basis. If you want to stuff your face and wonder why you don’t lose weight, fine. Just don’t wonder it out loud to me. I don’t want to hear it!

You also seemed to miss the very next paragraph in my post. I’ll paste here for you in case you were too upset to continue reading:

It’s not assholes themselves that burn my ass but the judgmentalism, narrow-mindedness, bigotry, and inability to mind their own business which (to me) they portray.

Ah, bullshit. The rest of the world continues to look upon the U.S. as the primary world leader; the country with the most muscle, the most popular entertainment industries, and the hippest pop culture; and the place where any person with a dream and the willingness to work hard can have a nice life. People I have met from overseas (and Canada) who don’t have an axe to grind with the U.S. freely admit both it’s good points and it’s bad points (and, lo, there are many). They don’t attempt to convince us there is a “fairly broad perception” in “the rest of the world” that we are “one big garbage can.” In fact, they don’t presume to speak for the “rest of the world” at all.

Since you apparently have some serious problems with the U.S. that extend beyond the weight of some of her citizens, allow me to invite you to go home and stay there, and not to let the door hit you on the ass on your way out of the country. We won’t miss you, I assure you.

The stereotype I was pointing out was one of a fat person stuffing their face and complaining about weight. The fact that your mother-in-law actually does this does not mean that this is not a stereotype. And, in fact, when you wrote this you did not say your mother-in-law actually did this. You made a general statement about what fat people do to piss you off:

No mention of mother-in-law, just an ugly visual of a fat person eating and whining. This ugly visual was then picked up by other posters and the stereotype was perpetuated. It doesn’t matter what the person was eating. It doesn’t even matter if this has actually happened in real life. This is how stereotypes work.

If you want to complain about people who complain too much, that’s one thing; there is no reason to disparage fat people in particular for excessive complaining, especially when fat people often have very real reasons to complain.

Show me 10 women who don’t complain about their weight. Why is the fat one the object of derision?

What about fat people who, while stuffing their faces, complain not about being fat, but instead about the negative social consequences of being fat (such as discrimination, indifference, and insensitivity)? Is it ok for a fat person to complain over lunch about, say, flight attendants who refuse to let them board because they “weigh too much”?

I hope, webmastr, that you are still reading everything that gets posted. I have read 98% of this thread but I wonder why no one (so far in my reading, anyway) has brought up that fact that humans are designed to retain as much weight as possible. Yeah, there are plenty of reasons why people are fat, but generally speaking, I think the modern American lifestyle is in direct opposition with what our bodies are programmed to do.

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=4929

I don’t see a problem with giving the link to explain who Mark is. It just illustrates that this topic has been gone over again and again. Yes, we fatties deserve being discriminated against. We deserve not to be hired or not having lovers. We get the message. We’ve gotten it from the time we were old enough to waddle into school. You don’t have to keep beating us over the head with it.

Asshole.

:raises hand:

I’ll be somebody’s one, if they’re trying to build a list. (For the record, when I was fat I didn’t then, either. When I noticed that my clothes no longer fit (actually, I burst a pair of pants once–that was embarassing), I started working on making them fit again.) webmaster, I’d venture to guess that you’ve never in your life tried to lose a serious amount of weight. It’s not easy, and it’s not a fast process. Nor do the effects neccessarily last.

FWIW, Biggirl, why do you assume that it’s only the fat woman (or man–are you assuming that my personal pet peeve is female?) is the one who’s annoying when they do the “oh, this is going to go right to my hips” while eating? I have friends of average build who do the same thing, and it’s bloody annoying from them, too. I hate what I see as a national obsession with weight. I hate the “lose weight after the holidays!” diets as much as I hate the “real men like women with big breasts” bit. I think it’s setting us at odds with each other. I yearn for the day when sf magazines outsell beauty magazines. I think we’ll have a much happier populace.

Kinda what I was trying to say. Especially here:

Since becoming unemployed, I gained thirty pounds easily. I have since taken off about ten of those pounds, and it was very difficult (spoken from a person who has otherwise been considered thin all of her life).

I can think of all kinds of reasons why it is difficult to lose weight, and one of the first ones I think of is, survival instinct. We humans are composed of genes of those people who survived, and those would be people who had the basic instinct to eat.

Predators (sorry, no cites at this moment) will gorge themselves on whatever animal they happened to have killed, because there is no guarantee for them when they will eat next.

In one of my psychology classes, a response to stress was defined as “flight or fight,” and that could also partially explain peoples’ urge to eat: preparing for flight or a fight.

Depression is also a regulator of weight; some people get very thin when depressed, and others eat.

webmaster, if you don’t have (and/or never have had) a problem with weight, well how nice for you. But how can you judge millions of people, not knowing their circumstances? Does this give you some kind of feeling of superiority? Thank your lucky stars for the good fortune that you have, and don’t belittle others who are different from you.

Biggirl, what a cheap thing to do! You deliberately left out the most important part of my statement - you know, the part where I did mention my mother-in-law.

I’m surprised that you would stoop to something so low. You could have still argued your point without taking my quote out of context.

The sentence that seems to bother you so much encompasses more than the obese. If you’ll note, I typed people who ‘deemed themselves to be fat.’ That includes a plethora of people. I really liked the way you ignored that…several times! Are you having trouble with the word deemed? Let me take this opportunity to define that verb for you. You see, to deem means to regard as or to consider. Now that you are armed with this data, you can see that my statement does not perpetuate the stereotype you so desperately want/need it to.

It seems that you were so emotionally distraught that you missed the backbone of what I said. Perhaps I hit a little too close to home?

Perhaps you should re-read the title of this thread. I responded about people who consider themselves fat because that’s the topic of discussion :rolleyes:

I didn’t feel the need to post the whole reply because it was already posted and re-posted. I posted the part I was referring to.

You did mention your mother-in-law, later on in the post. I have no problem with the word “deemed” as I have no problem with those who don’t like others who complain constantly. What I have a problem with is when someone makes a special point of ridiculing someone for being fat. Here, for the edification of those who did not see the entire quote:

Elt, I don’t think anybody is particulaly annoying when they complain about anything. And the only thing in your post that I have anything to say about is how quickly you picked up on the stereotype of fat people eating and whining.

What is so hard to understand about my objection to this? One person says it. Another person repeats it. Soon it’s accepted as truth. This is how stereotyping works.

Uh, I mentioned her in the NEXT sentence! The very fact that those sentences form a paragraph imply that each sentence is related to the next. You see, a paragraph deals with a single thought or topic.

Please, for the love of Pete, show me where I ridiculed someone for being fat!!! Hey, if you’re fat and don’t like it, deal with it. If you’re fat and don’t mind it, more power to you. But don’t expect me to aplogize for a sentiment I neither said nor implied. If your feelings got hurt it’s because you did not take the time to read my post in it’s entirety.

I am not perpetuating a stereotype by stating factual events. If the events fit the mold of some mental or emotional hang up you have, that’s your problem. Don’t come down on me because one fat person I know does almost everything in her power to make her situation worse.

You still seem to be ignoring the fact that my beef, so to speak, was with a person who considers themselves to be fat and whines that he or she can’t lose the weight while scarfing down two-thirds of a Meat-Lover’s pizza.

Having lived and worked in Europe, I would say that the biggest difference between the US and Europe is not the portion size. Every restaurant meal that I remember from the Netherlands was HUGE, plus the Dutch eat lots of butter and cheese! yet, the obesity rate is much lower than in the states. The difference-PHYSICAL ACTIVITY! The Dutch RIDE BICYCLES (even the old granmothers get around on bikes)-of course, the fact that the country is flat makes this easy. But, by and large, we Americans simply eat too much for the level of activity that we have-most jobs are sedentary, and if you don’t walk or ride a bike regularly, you are going to gain weight!

Juanita, you did not say: I have a problem with my mother-in-law when she eats 5 peices of fried chicken and complains about being fat. You said:

To which Eft replied:

And Spritle added:
QUOTE]*Originally posted by spritle *
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I submit: the overweight person who complains about their inability to lose weight while downing the 8 piece fried chicken bucket sure seems to have this inappropriate victim mentality, but it may stem from he/she desparately needing attention (for whatever reason) and this always gets him/her noticed. The person is truly a victim of attention defecit (:)) which may have stemmed from neglect or other such horrible circumstances.
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[/QUOTE]

Eft did not say, I hate it when Juanita’s mother-in-law eats 5 pieces of chicken and then complains about being fat. Spritle did not say, Juanita’s mother-in-law is an inappropriate victim because she eats a whole lot and complains that she’s fat. Let me, again, highlight the part of your post I take exception to:
Now, onto my point. I, too, hate when anyone who deems themselves to be fat complains about their size while woofing down a 5 piece fried chicken meal from Popeye’s. My husband’s mother is fat. And I mean FAT.

Bolding is mine. So, it’s O.K. to spread ugliness about a class of people who “deem themselves fat”? Because I say I’m fat I’m not allowed to complain about my weight? Nor should I say anything to people who perpetuate an ugly stereotype?

Let me preface my statement my saying the woman I’m married to is fat. Maybe not hugely obese, but fat enough to vex webmastr. When we were dating she was just chunky and I sort of knew she would gain weight in the coming years. Well, she did gain a lot of weight and I can live with it. Is she sexy as fat as she is? No. But I’m not going to dump her for being fat; there is more to love and marriage than being a sexy waif thin cover model. And, yes, she is fat because she eats too much junky food and doesn’t exercise at all. Sometimes she bemoans her weight and blames the fat gene and I keep my mouth shut and maybe even nod my head in agreement. I’ve started exercise programs for myself and invited her to join me, but she has her excuses. Excuses, excuses, excuses. I let her be and don’t criticize her weight. She’ll never be thin, I know that, but she doesn’t have to be as fat as she is. I’ll love her no matter what her size, but gee-whiz what a pig.

Okay, that is enough of that. Under all the hateful bile of the OP, I think there is a legitimate point. Americans are fatsos. They eat like hogs at a trough, wallow in front of the TV on the couch with a bag of potato chips, and gripe about the unfair body images promoted by the media. The CDC claims 17% of US citizens are overweight. While you may or may not agree with the definitions of “overweight” or percentage of overweight Americans, I think the trend shows that Americans are gaining more and more weight. And, as seen in this thread, people are vehemently defending and excusing their weight for whatever reasons - for good or for bad.

I think a more appropriate response the problem of “Fat Americans” is whither there are good reasons to combat the trend to Tub-of-Lardom. Is there something wrong with being fat? I don’t know, maybe. I know Mrs. Pyrrhonist would be happier if dropped a lot of pounds.

A-fucking-men, N4S. Right now my absolutely favorite people in the whole fucking world are not skinny. Some not really all that close, and three seem very happy despite the fact that webmastr would be repulsed to see them. Ooh baby — I bet they care lots that a self-righteous pissant doesn’t like how they look.

One of the reasons I don’t like skinny people all that much (if they try to stay skinny) is they feel so disgusting when I hug them. Being a guy with decent strength, it’s always in the back of my mind that I might be hurting them when I hug them or joke around . . . things like that. With my friends who are not skinny, I don’t have that to worry about. I can hug them nice and tight and they do the same. It’s great.

So you don’t like to see fat people . . . great. I don’t give a fuck. Don’t look at them. Ten to one, odds are they don’t give a bloody fuck that you think they’re fat. Ten to one, odds are they have enough people already telling them that.[sub]Ten to one, odds are I’m wasting my time on this post because webmastr’s a fuckhed.[/sub]

It would be absolutely wonderful to see this society get the fuck rid of this ideal woman with either no breasts or perfect D-cups, legs four feet long, blond and red hair (since “average” guys are split on this one), and the personality of a cheerleader - nice and peppy and full of spunk. Give me a woman who knows how to eat and can be sarcastic and evil and all that fun stuff, please!

[N.B.: By “knows how to eat” I mean someone who is NOT skinny.]