FEAR ME: I'm a Jew! or *sigh* WB strikes again

[TheThill]

It should be everyone’s own choice to decide how they wish to label themselves.

Judaism can be a religion, but Jewishness can also be reflected in a wide range Jewish cultural traits (words, gestures, food…) of various traditions (Eastern European/Ashkenasi, modern Israeli, North African, Iranian, Yemeni, etc.)

If a 3rd generation agnostics and atheists still enjoy blintzes, gefilte fish and bagels w/lox, pepper their English with a few choice Yiddishisms, etc. then they may very well deem themselves to be Jewish, or they might not even be sure what to call themselves, which is definitely their right as well!

Besides all that, many people identify with being Jewish only because of family history or even family tragedy (Holocaust). If you had family members killed, it is then very hard to dissociate yourself with being Jewish, whether out of respect or just plain spite.

[Fenris]

*Originally posted by portajon *
**Nope. It would be impossible to “remain” more ignorant. I could remain ignorant but more ignorant would have to imply time travel through which I would neglect to learn something I already know. Upon returning to the present I would be more ignorant. Other than that, no. **

Regardless of the semantics debate, apparently you are growing dumber. The mind boggles at the idea of your already limited intellect collapsing into a sort of black whole of ignorance, which destroys all knowledge, and yet…here you are.

In this post you wrote

do not know a single Jewish person nor have I ever questioned the US support of Israel until now. This is obvious in the op. I am most certainly not a bigot. I don’t know enough about Israel or Jews to have a reason to be one.

and yet, here you are, verbal diarrhea spewing out of the loose sphincter that is your mouth, about something you admittedly know nothing about.

Why don’t you crawl back under your bridge?

Fenris

[Fenris]

LaurAnge, a quick note to say “You were right. I was wrong. …probably”

I mentioned this thread and my position to Mama Fenris, who…um…well…

…er…

Let’s put it this way: The phrase “…are you nuts?!” was used.

More than once.

Suffice it to say, she pointed out the “Your mom is Jewish, you’re Jewish, regardless of belief.” rule that I had forgotten. She also pointed out that the rule still has real-world relevance with the Right of Return using the “mother” standard.

I like Alessan’s analogy on the previous page where he likened the concept of Jewish-ness to an extended family. It gets around my “it ain’t a race” objections and “feels” right.

So…while I’m still a bit uncomfortable with the concept (that being a Jew means anything other than religion), I conceed the point.

I’m no Sun-Tzu, but even I know that one doesn’t fight a “war” on two fronts, especially when one front is Mama Fenris and the other is LaurAnge!

Fenris

ps: Shayna: Boobala?! I haven’t heard that word outside of a Rocky and Bullwinkle cartoon in like 25 years! My great-grandma used to use it.

[DeadlyAccurate]

*Originally posted by cuautemhoc *
**

Originally posted by Revtim *
**
Jodi’s right, why on Earth are you offended at compliments?*

Obviously, only negative stereotypes are harmful. I mean, take the Polish people, for example: Great fighters! I once saw this Pole I knew knock this other dude right on his ass! And the dude was twice his size too! Great fighters, the Polish people, you do not want to piss one of these guys off.

Not that I’m saying they have bad tempers, I’m just saying that you want to watch yourself around them because when they fly off the handle… whoo boy! And I mean this in the most complimentary way - excellent fighters, these people. Which is exactly why I wouldn’t want my sister to marry one.

Now do not get me wrong, I would never insinuate that all Poles are wife-beaters, that’s exactly the type of negative stereotyping that’s responsible for all the hate and ignorance in the world. Not to mention that Polish women handle their Polish husbands might-ty well thank you very much! 'Cause they’re just as tough as the guys!

No, obviously I’m not saying that Polish women are masculine, all I said was that they keep their men in line. Not all of them, sure. But centuries of having to deal with these violent (in a good way) men just has to have had an effect on the Polish female, both mentally and physically. The Poles are strong, capable people with a real knack for a good fight, which is a trait that can be every bit as beneficial as attractiveness, intelligence, or strong thighs. So get off the P.C. bandwagon, people! Just like any idiot can see I have nothing against the Polish people, Wildest Bill obviously has nothing against Jews, so where’s the harm? **

Wow, this was good.

[Jonathan_Chance]

Try to get some sleep and some dumbass fuck comes and dumps all over my somewhat feeble attempt to slam Wildest Bill. Teach me to have human frailties.

Nice to know, however, that I can slam the ignorant and, by doing so, flush more game out of the weeds. I think we’ve certainly done that here.

And…for the record.

ChanceMom=Jew
ChanceDad=Southern Baptist
Chance=Jew, goddammit

Any questions?

[dropzone]

I have to admit that, despite the Mossad and the Israeli armed forces, “FEAR ME: I’m a Jew!” doesn’t quite connect. Just a few too many not-especially-scary friends. Mama Fenris and Shayna, on the other hand . . . . Should the title have been “FEAR ME: I’m a Jewess!”?

[Alessan]

*Originally posted by Captain Amazing *
**

*Originally posted by Alessan *
**Your sister-in-law didn’t just change her beliefs, she joined a group. Became an acquisition. Pulled a Kevin Costner. **

Dances with Gefilte Fish? **

More like Kvetches with Wolves.

[Helen_s_Eidolon]

Goodness, I don’t even know where to start.

Oh, I lied, I do: portajon, you are an ignorant dipshit.

Yes, Jewish law says that if your mother is Jewish, so are you, no matter what. Even if I walked into shoul, smacked a rabbi around, said and “Fuck you and all the rest of your religion”, I would still be considered a jew.

Now, as to why I am Jewish: I was raised this way. I don’t know if I believe in G-d, none of my family does. We don’t care. I still celebrate Rosh Hashanah, fast on Yom Kippur and (to a certain degree) keep Passover. I haven’t been to synagogue since my cousin’s bar-mitzvah, but so what?

When I get married, it’ll be a Jewish wedding. And I will have a bris for my sons, and all my children will have bar/bat mitzvahs (unless, of course, they are violently opposed).

The point is that for me this is about family and tradition, not religion. I can proudly call myself Jewish and keep what my family died for.

And a smack to to anyone who would like to tell me otherwise.*

Originally posted by portajon

Main Entry: Ca·na·di·an
Pronunciation: k&-'nA-dE-&n
Function: noun
Date: 1568
: a native or inhabitant of Canada

Yes, I am Canadian. When did I ever deny that? I am very proud of being Canadian, as well. It is my nationality.

Originally posted by… sigh guess who
Poor thing. You don’t like my point of view so you just wish it would go away. Why don’t those that don’t practice the religion call themselves what they really are (if their country of birth isn’t enough) Semitic.

My nationality has nothing to do with my being Jewish or not. I ask again, in your mind, what country would I have to have been born in to consider myself Jewish? Besides, I don’t think I could accurately call myself Semitic. My family cannot trace themselves back to Israel in any way, we’re all from Eastern Europe.

Read the thread. It is not a matter of fact. It is a matter of great debate. 2 + 2 = 4. That is fact. Agnostic citizen of Canada = Jew. Bullshit.

This agnostic citizen of Canada is a Jew, whether you like it or not. Get over it man, this isn’t your decision to make, as much as you may want it to be.

Why don’t we all trace our heritage and claim it as our race/tribe/religion. Before long there wouldn’t be any Americans or Canadians left. Get some help with your identity crisis. You’ll feel better.

I’ll say this slowly.
I am “agnostic” (if you want to call me that, I never have called myself that) and Canadian and Jewish.

Am I wasting my time here?

And Fenris, I too like the “extended family” concept. Would it help if I told you I think of it very much as in traditions that I follow (sometimes) and think are important to carry on but that my personal religion is seperate?

*Except Fenris, he apologized nicely and did have relatively good arguments behind him.

[Fenris]

*Originally posted by LaurAnge *
And Fenris, I too like the “extended family” concept. Would it help if I told you I think of it very much as in traditions that I follow (sometimes) and think are important to carry on but that my personal religion is seperate?

Well, I’m still “grappling” with the concept…my “gut” level feeling (which I now admit is incorrect) is
JEW=RELIGION
and I’m having to adjust to the shocking and unprecidented fact that [sub]i was wrong.[/sub] :eek:

If you don’t mind answering a couple of question, honestly meant, though: without a belief in God, (aargh…this is coming out badly. I apologize in advance) what do the traditions mean to you? Are they ‘just’ a date for the family to get together? Do you use meanings of the holidays without the spiritual aspect? (Yom Kippur would be for reflecting on the past year, but not asking for forgiveness from God, for example?). This kinda puzzles me.

Thanks in advance for any insights.

Fenris

[Polycarp]

Ah, but Jonathan, Laurange, and Fenris, by Bill’s premise, you could be cleverly disguising your innate superior abilities for future commercial advantage.

Portajon, by your reasoning, every Republican was a heretic during the Clinton years, because, claiming to be Americans, they did not support his Presidency. Can you grasp that “Jew” can mean any or all of religious belief, status by inheritance, or ethnic extraction?

If Laurange should adopt a half-Japanese-half-Eskimo daughter, and that daughter should convert to Greek Orthodoxy, and become the Patriarch of Constantinople (the rules on Holy Orders for women having been changed by then), that daughter would still be a Jew, since she is the child of a Jewish mother. The Episcopal Church numbers among its saints Samuel Isaac Joseph Schereschewsky, Episcopal missionary to China and son of a rabbi, who is a Jew by ethnic descent. And if Osama bin Laden should be proselytized by Benjamin Netanyahu and convert, he would be a Jew by religion, despite his Arab extraction.

Extreme cases, to be true. But demonstrative of the premise that the word has different meanings.

[Helen_s_Eidolon]

*Originally posted by Fenris *
**If you don’t mind answering a couple of question, honestly meant, though: without a belief in God, (aargh…this is coming out badly. I apologize in advance) what do the traditions mean to you? Are they ‘just’ a date for the family to get together? Do you use meanings of the holidays without the spiritual aspect? (Yom Kippur would be for reflecting on the past year, but not asking for forgiveness from God, for example?). This kinda puzzles me.

Thanks in advance for any insights.

Fenris **

No problem (and no need to apologize :))

You’re pretty close in a lot of your guesses. I really value the emphasis placed on family (shown in traditions like the Shiva).

I guess I’ve just grown up this way… I was never really taught to believe in G-d, that’s always been a personal decision for me. At Rosh Hashanah we just all chat, at Passover we speed through the Hagaddah (since only one person in my family can even read Hebrew) and laugh at how we only know the chorus of Dyanu (sp?).

[Captain_Amazing]

*Originally posted by Polycarp *
[B
If Laurange should adopt a half-Japanese-half-Eskimo daughter, and that daughter should convert to Greek Orthodoxy, and become the Patriarch of Constantinople (the rules on Holy Orders for women having been changed by then), that daughter would still be a Jew, since she is the child of a Jewish mother. **

If she adopted her? That’s a tough one. I think the baby would have to convert to Judaism. Anybody know for sure?

[gobear]

I don’t see why the question of “who is a Jew” should be considered by anyone other than the individual in question.

Given all the persecution, ostracism, and icy stares at the country club that Jews have had to endure for the last 5762 years, it seems to me that anybody who stands up and says, “Hell, yeah, I’m a Jew” is a Jew.

Is Judaism a religion or an ethnicity? Yes, and kinda. Ceertainly, the Jewish religion contains some of the most beautiful liturgical language ever devised. Jewish thought has given the world the wisdom of Maimonides, the sanctity of the Vilna Gaon, and the practicality of Spinoza.
Yet, you can be a stone atheist and still be culturally Jewish (attends Seder on Passover, keeps kosher). Ethnically, Judaism is wildly diverse. You got your Ashkenazim, your Sfardim, your Hasidim, your Russian Jews who can’t even say a simple b’rucha but still are part of the tribe, your Ethiopian Jews, your Moroccans, Iraqis, and so on. All different, all Jewish.

And I really think Portajon is meshuggah. You can be American or Canadian and be a Christian, a Jew, a Muslim, a Hindu, a Sikh, a Parsi, a Jain, or First Church of Quetzalcoatl (Reformed)!

[andros]

First Church of Quetzalcoatl (Reformed)

Splitters!

[Polycarp]

First Church of Quetzalcoatl (Reformed

Great Minds Think Alike

[Wildest_Bill]

I see my initials on yet another pit thread. This time is for complimenting Jews and their business savy and what accomplished they have made with Gods help and guidence. Some people are fair again and see I was not trying to insult the Jews with compliments(thanks Jodi again I wish you forgive me one day) but just trying to prove to others that the God the Jews worship IS the true God.

Then instead of flaming me for giving the Jewsish community a compliment y’all start bickering about what a Jew is. I might be entertaining to y’all but y’all are certainly entertaining to me. It would be such trip to hear y’all dinner conversations. Do y’all debate everything?

I can hear you now:

SD#1 I want coke
SD#2 A new coke or an a classic coke?
SD#3 are you usinng coke as a generic name name for a syrup soda water and actually want a pepsi?
SD#4 Or are you wanting a drug that is made from the coco leaves don’t you know that is illegal?
SD#1 Forget it just give a water
SD#2 Tap or Bottled?
SD#1 AAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHHHH

Y’all(am I spelling y’all right yet?) are too funny

[Jonathan_Chance]

*Originally posted by Polycarp *
Ah, but Jonathan, Laurange, and Fenris, by Bill’s premise, you could be cleverly disguising your innate superior abilities for future commercial advantage.

Christ! Will you keep it down! What are you trying to do, blow it for everyone?

[Shayna]

*Originally posted by Fenris *
**If you don’t mind answering a couple of question, honestly meant, though: without a belief in God, (aargh…this is coming out badly. I apologize in advance) what do the traditions mean to you? Are they ‘just’ a date for the family to get together? Do you use meanings of the holidays without the spiritual aspect? (Yom Kippur would be for reflecting on the past year, but not asking for forgiveness from God, for example?). This kinda puzzles me.

Thanks in advance for any insights.**

I’ll be happy to answer for myself, Fenris. I see pretty much all the Jewish holidays as “celebrations of life,” and, in essence, the saving and preserving of the “right” to be Jewish, so to speak. I celebrate Passover, not so much thanking G-d for supposedly miraculously smiting the first born sons of Egyptians and parting the Red Sea, but as a way of saying “thanks” and remembering the hardships my ancestors suffered for the sake of being allowed to practice their faith. I eat matzoh to remind me that people suffered so that I would have the freedom to be a Jew.

Same thing for Purim - I celebrate the wisdom and compassion of Ahasuerus, which ultimately led to, again, the saving of the Jews. Hannukah - same thing. I thank those who came before me for fighting, risking death, to preserve the future of Judaism. I honor the traditions my ancestors followed as a way of honoring them and their sacrifices. I am where I am, what I am and who I am, to some degree, because of their willingness to put their lives on the line so that I could be.

Did G-d have a hand in any of those events playing out as they did? Got me. I wasn’t there. Nor do I necessarily believe that it matters when it comes to the depth of my feelings towards my Jewish heritage.

I am a Jew because people gave their lives for me to have the freedom to be one. I am a Jew because my ancestors were Jews. I am a Jew because I love the basic tenets of the faith. I love that Judaism is the only religion (according to my Rabbi - if he was wrong, someone will correct me, I’m sure) that doesn’t have a “creed.” You don’t have to buy into this, that or the other thing in order to be considered a Jew (much less, a “good” Jew).

Unfortunately work becons now, but I’ll come back later and relate a story of a retreat I went on with my Sunday School class during my confirmation year.

Shalom, bubee (alternate, shortened spelling :))

[Helen_s_Eidolon]

*Originally posted by Captain Amazing *
**If she adopted her? That’s a tough one. I think the baby would have to convert to Judaism. Anybody know for sure? **

Actually, I would think that the more conservative factions (Orthodox, Hassidic) would not accept the child as being Jewish automatically (then again, I don’t think they allow people to convert easily either) but I’m pretty sure Reform Jews would assume the child to be automatically Jewish.

[andros]

Bill, it sounds like you have not yet read the thread.

Please do so. Then, you might have a btter understanding of why some people might have been grumpy about your generalizations.