Femme Queer, Butch Queer

Great Debates
41

Look, man, if I want to change a gas or a vapor into a liquid, that’s my business, and I’ll thank you to keep your judgementalism to yourself!

Seriously, though: I don’t think that a person who has come out relatively late in life is necessarily less qualified to speak to identity issues. It’s even arguable that such a person is more qualified to speak about them, as they’ve had a longer and more intimate struggle with those issues than with someone who came to grips with their identity early in life, or never had to struggle with it in the first place. Not that I think I’m necessarily in a position to lecture anyone about anything, nor have I intended to do so in this thread. If I’ve come across that way, well, that’s unfortunate, but I would not change anything I’ve written in this thread. It’s my opinion, good or ill, and I’ve come by it as honestly as anyone else.

FWIW, I’ve usually liked you on the boards, as well, but lately… well, you know the rest.

42

Maybe I’m just jealous that you’ve got a boyfriend after only a few months out of the closet and I’m getting blue balls since last year.

Peace.

43

The most fundamental issue here is being critically overlooked.

Urdu love poetry.

44

Homebrew, Miller is entitled to his opinion and how long he’s been out doesn’t enter into it. The bit about “hiding” in the closet I find unfair; we each come out at our own pace. If you disagree with him (as I do; see below), you should be able to disagree with him regardless of how long he’s been out.

Miller, I don’t think Johanna sees being gay itself as an achievement. But surely you can appreciate that coming out, identifying yourself, coming to see yourself as part of a community, can be a difficult process.

I’m sure you can appreciate that with Johanna’s being a trans woman, there are a whole host of issues associated with her coming to identify as a lesbian. Our communities can be difficult places for trans people to find their place in. I don’t want to speak for her, but I imagine it was a major inner achievement for her to realize that yes, she is entitled to identify as a lesbian, and to find the strength to refuse and resist those (and they exist) who would contradict her.

As a non-trans person, for example, I’m privileged in that if I call myself a gay man, few people will contradict me. If I were a trans man, gay men in general would be substantially more likely to doubt my identity or to attempt to impose their notions of my identity on me. I can easily understand how overcoming that in your own mind and finding the courage to stand up to it when one encounters it is an achievement.

I can sort of identify with it conversely: coming out as gay was relatively easy for me, but it took me a very long time to decide I could identify myself as genderqueer, that I was “entitled” to do so, that I wasn’t just feigning or appropriating the label, and that I would be and would feel justified in telling people who would accuse me of same to piss up a rope.

You told Johanna that if lesbians hadn’t accepted her, it wouldn’t be worth the acceptance. I don’t think that’s true at all. The lesbian community offers a unique form of acceptance to lesbians, one they can’t get elsewhere, whether or not an individual lesbian feels an acute need for it. I can understand why Johanna would feel the need for this acceptance, and why she was proud to accept herself as a bona fide lesbian.

45

Perhaps I’m entirely misreading the thread, but it sounded to me like Johanna’s acceptance of herself as a lesbian was contingent on being accepted as such by other lesbians. Certainly, it’s always a good thing to find acceptance with a group you admire/identify with, but it seemed to me that she was getting her identity from the group, and not from within herself. Going soley by what she’s written in this thread, I don’t see that she’s found the strength to “refuse and resist those who would contradict her.” Which, I hasten to say, doesn’t mean she lacks that strength, only that I’m not seeing evidence for it in this thread, which of course is focusing on her positive experiences with the gay community. If her sense of self is derived externally, it will make her more vulnerable should she find herself in a situation where the gay community is not as supportive of her identity.

I had a similar hesitancy in coming out, myself, as I was afraid that I wasn’t “gay enough” because I’m just as attracted to women as I am to men, and that played a pretty substantial role in keeping me in the closet as long as I did. What if I made a big deal about being gay, and then went and fell in love with a woman? Would people think I was some sort of hypocrite, or dilletante? A big part of my own coming out experience was realizing that I didn’t have to define myself by others perceptions. I’m gay, even if I happen to be sleeping with a woman. How any particular community feels about me is irrelevant.

That’s not exactly what I said. Johanna wasn’t accepted by “the” lesbian community, she was accepted by “a” lesbian community. If she hadn’t been accepted by this particular community, it would be because of a defect in this community, and not in herself. It wouldn’t make her any less of a lesbian.

46

My beef with Miller isn’t about how long he’s been out. It’s about how sanctimonious he can get when he presumes to lecture others.

47

I certainly agree it wasn’t necessary, strictly, for Johanna to be accepted. But it was a blessing, a good thing, something that removed a lot of pain from her life, that she was. And she can celebrate that. After all, man is a social animal.

I can relate, on the level of my ostracism. I’m a geek. (oh, angst, oh, drama) Most people couldn’t care less about the things I like, such as giant robots and comic books, and all that stuff. I’ve spent my life obsessing over foreign cartoons and hunks of plastic.

Now, if I went to a convention, my first convention, full of what are supposed to be people like me, and I was roundly rejected like a Star Wars fan in a Trek convention… well, you don’t think it wouldn’t scar? Contrawise, if I was welcomed, I made friends, I met a girl, started dating, gained self confidence, started to have a social life… don’t you think it would be healing?

Sure, it’s not quite the same thing. And sure, it’s fictionalized, and so on. But I can see where she’s coming from. I’ve been there, I could have been there, and I will be there again.

If there’s one thing geeks know, it’s pain.

48

It must be nice to be telepathic too, Homebrew. To know that I have always considered myself “good enough”. To know that I have never felt inadequate. And so on and so on. How’d you manage it? Is is possible that I could take lessons?

Actually, being over 18 and having a dick is enough to qualify someone as a man in my book, and not being German I don’t find it necessary to capitalise the noun or draw an artificial distinction between a man and a Man. On anything other than an empirical biological definition, we’re getting into No True Man territory, and that way madness lies.

Whatever insecurities I may have had growing up and becoming who I am, whatever issues I may have had to work through… I hope if I were to seem pretentious (moi?) in talking about them, someone would tactfully point it out.

[aside] So now there is a lesbian community after all? This gets confusing without an official rulebook [/aside]

49

It’s called sarcasm, Malacandra. But you already knew that.

Miller, I’m sorry I’ve let things fester and given you some uncalled for shit here. I reckon I’ve held a grudge over some disagreements a few months back and it’s time to let it go. Peace, this time for real.

50

Homebrew, I had the possibly foolish impression that you were basing your argument off the supposition that I was insufferably self-confident and conceited, and hence intolerant of those who weren’t. Howsomever, I am not invested in this whole subject enough to want to argue about it further. I wandered in to remark about what I saw as a sloppy comparison, no more. I’m happy to call it quits in the interests of seeing if there is a f’ractual debate here.

51

Perish forbid you should get the wrong idea about me. :smiley:

In furtherance of that goal -

I can’t find the English translation of the above, but I bet this is close -

Regards,
Shodan

52

Since I kinda got the brouhaha rolling, let me say that I did not understand that Johanna was trans, which does make her concern for acceptance more understandable.

53

Ah, it’s all good.

54

Well, to go back to the original OP-- some great writing on gender theory is done by Judith Butler at UC Berkeley. Her basic thesis is that we’ve been handed what is “male” and what is “female” without question generation after generation for so long that the concept of gender (and therefore sexuality) has basically lost any intrinsic meaning that it may have, especially in changing economic and technological circumstances. Just think of what it meant to be a heterosexual woman before and after the birth control pill to get a taste of these kinds of historical changes.

As for dichotomies-- butch/femme, gay/straight, male/female yadda/yadda-- first, it reallly isn’t so much a set of opposites as it is a bunch of continuums, and it breaks down at the individual level anyway due to complexity (one of my main gripes with the “identity” movement). Of course there are biological differences between the genders and (intersex issues aside) and probably within sexual orientation, but for the most part an individual’s adaptation is both a function of biological demands and personal experience, and only the latter can really be questioned and controlled.

Whew. Sorry about that. End of culture theory rant now.

As for the quote above on lesbians, I think Johanna’s point is that even in the context of your own peers, there is a real fear that you do not measure up. It isn’t a matter of lesbians claiming to be “better” or that there are certain lesbians that will fit in while others don’t, but rather that as women we sometimes internally feel that we do not measure up at all next to people we admire or a group we wish to be a part of. It’s easy to be a chick that digs chicks; it’s a lot harder to be a chick that digs chicks who wants to hang out with anything from a highly-charged activist group to your town’s local lesbian clique. As “political” lesbians, I think we’ve learned that we’re as big a set of doofuses as any other group of humans.

55

matt_mcl, you da boi. Big hugs and props to you. You understood so well exactly what I was trying to express, and you explained it beautifully. It makes me happy every time you show up in a thread. Your contributions always improve it. You’re a very well-informed and compassionate young gentleman.

miller, it’s cool. I can see how my posts could be read so as to get the meaning that my identity was externally-derived. It isn’t, it came from within, but I like being able to share myself with others. The strength that the group gives to each of its members is very valuable. I left out the part on why the lesbian identity is an inner impulse I’ve had for years but was shy to talk about. Until I found that the sistas liked my dyke erotica, so then once I made sure I wasn’t dreaming, it really was happening for me, you know? Thanks for getting me to clarify that.

Homebrew, thanks for the understanding and support.

FriarTed, surprise!

mojave66, thanks so much for the contribution. What you posted makes a lot of sense. When I started this OP, I was kind of hung up on the dichotomy but now I feel much more comfortable with who I am so I don’t need to be defensive about it. Not everybody feels a need to look at things in terms of say a butch/femme dichotomy. Maybe only a minority does. Like I said based on my limited experience, in the group I hung with most of the sistas were not differentiated either way along those lines, they were just themselves, you know? If I like dressing up pretty and behaving gently, I’m OK with this being labeled “femme.” I don’t do it with reference to butchness or anything, I just do it because that’s how I feel comfortable. I was just looking for information on how to navigate the political issues that come up around these identities.

I’ve been blessed so far, I have not gotten any attacks for being trans. Funny looks, but that doesn’t bother me. I have gotten lots of support and new friends along with it though. The horror stories I’ve heard of lesbian enmity to transwomen are from the past. In the present day, it appears to me as though plenty of feminists, lesbians, and other queers are dropping the transphobia they once held. I have certainly found great love and acceptance among queer people, including lesbians, everywhere I go.

But in case anyone ever attacked me over my qualification to identify as lesbian, knowing I have my peeps behind me strengthens me to withstand any such challenge.

56

Another question for those who know about this sort of thing.

In my reading I keep coming across references to the butch/queer issue as belonging to the past, characteristic of working-class lesbian bars in the 1950s. Something obsolete among the sophisticated set.

And yet some dykes still go for it, albeit with a consciousness that playing at retro styles can be fun when you’re not all hemmed in by the social restrictions that went along with those retro styles. I, personally, could not wear a poodle skirt without thinking of Jim Crow, and all queers having to stay closeted, and Red-baiting.

My personal preference in retro style is 1490s Florence, Italy. That’s Fourteen-Nineties. The Florentine Renaissance. The Nineteen-Fifties? No thanks! Although I did enjoy Twin Peaks, because Lynch’s obsession with the Fifties is just too intense to be believed. If there had ever been a lesbian bar in the Twin Peaks universe, you can bet that the femme/butch dichotomy would be out in full force.

No, I feel different… queerer than queer, you might say… because I didn’t go for femme style with the intention of getting with butches. I just liked that style because that’s what I like; I only found out later what it was called. But I did not buy into the butch/femme system, whatever that is. I do enjoy playing with it, if it’s fun, like the experience I had at the queer conference.

57

“Babe, where’s your question?”

My question is:

“What do you think about this?”

Apologies for the typo: I meant to say “references to the butch**/femme** issue.” That’ll teach me to post baked without preview. Post Bakies.

Added just before the preview: Is there any good Twin Peaks slashfic along these lines? I would like to see Catherine/Shelly. Guess which one’s the butch and which one’s the femme. :wink:

Has anyone seen Louis Malle’s film Milou en mai (May Fools)? If that movie is any evidence, butch/femme was alive and well in France 1968. But the butch role played by Dominique Blanc was sleek, stylish, sexy, and in general a male fantasy of how a butch should look to be pleasing to a man’s eye. What’d you expect? Louis Malle has made his whole film career off of the predatory male gaze.

58

It used to be back then that, as a lesbian, you were either butch or femme; those who weren’t were called “ki-ki” and looked down on, as were those butches who liked other butches or femmes who liked other femmes.

For a while, use of labels such as butch or femme (even for oneself) or adherence to/identification with the archetypes, was regarded as obsolete and backwards.

Now it’s to the point where basically it’s all a big game and people can do whatever they want. None of it is mandatory or forbidden and it all goes by people’s tastes and inclinations.

59

Yeah, matt, that’s what really frosts my cakes… Butch-on-butch relationships, or femme-on-femme, are looked down on? So only butch-on-femme is considered normative? I have a hard time seeing this as anything but an insidious touch of heterosexualism intruding into the queer world where it doesn’t belong.

I’m a femme who likes femmes, I am so totally incorrect/eccentric when it comes to just about anything. I have so many levels of queer piled up, I’m queer de la queer. I give up trying to please anyone else, and just go with what I like. When I’m feeling comfortable with myself, I project a more attractive personality anyway.

As for Renaissance lesbianism, it was for real. There exists Renaissance literature on lesbian themes. See Lilian Faderman, Surpassing the Love of Men: Romantic Friendship and Love Between Women from the Renaissance to the Present. New York: Quill, 1998.

60

Past tense, dear. I can’t imagine anyone getting twitchy about it now.