Finn Again's Wake

[Captain_Amazing]

@amanset

Exactly what were the British supposed to do with the 60,000 prisoners they found in the camp when they liberated it?

In the case he’s talking about, he’s talking about 4,500 people, and they could have let them into Palestine.

It was the Exodus passengers who were imprisoned in Poppendorf.

[amanset]

@Captain_Amazing

In the case he’s talking about, he’s talking about 4,500 people, and they could have let them into Palestine.

It was the Exodus passengers who were imprisoned in Poppendorf.

He has massive issues with Jews being kept in the German barracks at Bersen-Belsen.

When the British liberated it there were 60,000 prisoners there. He hasn’t offered up any other ideas as to what the British should have done, but god-damn it whatever the British did it was wrong. Because it was done by the British.

SS Exodus was possibly a mistake. Without having experienced the situation in Palestine at the time and the impact of dumping 4,500 Jews there, I am on the fence about the whole thing. It could have been a disaster. It could have worked out. We’ll never know.

It still doesn’t explain exactly what Finn Again thinks the British should have done with 60,000 sick, dying, malnourished prisoners though.

[Baron_Greenback]

I don’t know, I feel I should just self-flagellate myself into a coma due to the atrocities of my ancestors after reading Finn Again’s posts.

thwack thwack thwack

They did nothing right, nothing at all.

thwack *thwack…

[Captain_Amazing]

@amanset

He has massive issues with Jews being kept in the German barracks at Bersen-Belsen.

The problem wasn’t so much that the British set up a DP camp near Bergen-Belsen, but in the way that they treated the displaced persons when they were there, especially in refusing to allow people to leave the camp. A lot of the people in the Jewish camp were stuck in there until 1949. So, after their liberation from the Nazis, they were, in effect, imprisoned by the British. This was undoubtedly, in most cases, a more benign imprisonment, but it was imprisonment nevertheless.

The British treatment of displaced persons at Bergen-Belsen was, in some ways, I’d say, criminal, with their policy of refusing to feed “unauthorized” refugees. The British were certainly harshest in their treatment of displaced Jews, and that was largely because of the British policy on Palestine. From here(bolding mine):

The opinion of the Control Office in London notwithstanding, the policies of denying entry to the camps to refugees and of withholding food rations from unauthorized residents at Bergen-Belsen proved to be efficacious. The later measure was the cause of considerable hardship for the population of the Bergen-Belsen camp, which had been attracting most of the Jewish refugees making their way into the British zone in Germany. In order to maintain the new arrivals, the Jewish Committee at the camp was compelled to draw on the limited resources furnished by Jewish welfare organizations. On 23 August 1946, Josef Rosensaft, the camp committee chairman, appealed to the Secretary General of UNRIZA, Fiorello La Guardia, to intervene. Rosensaft complained bitterly about the treatment being meted out to recently arrived Jewish refugees from Poland and observed: “It is tragic to see the spectacle of hundreds of these people who have undergone so many hardships as Jews, arrive in the British zone to be treated as German refugees.”

Some days earlier La Guardia had responded to the British government’s statement that Jews arriving from Poland were ineligible for UNRRA assistance by declaring that the organization would continue to help them unless the UNIZAA Central Committee expressly ordered otherwise. He noted that, according to conservative estimates, between 60 and 70 thousand Jews would flee from Poland; and that UNRRA, in its capacity as a humanitarian organization, could not ignore the problem. At a meeting with Clement Attlee early in September 1946, La Guardia asked that Jewish refugees from Eastern Europe be allowed into the British zones and receive the same treatment as that extended to displaced persons. The British prime minister refused, adding that he did not believe that Jews were unable to go on living in Poland. Further, if conditions for these refugees were improved at the camps, the influx of Eastern European Jews would only increase. Indeed the entire movement, Attlee maintained, was artificial and was engineered primarily for the purpose of forcing his government’s hand in the matter of Palestine.

I would recommend that essay to you, by the way.

[amanset]

@Captain_Amazing

The problem wasn’t so much that the British set up a DP camp near Bergen-Belsen, but in the way that they treated the displaced persons when they were there, especially in refusing to allow people to leave the camp. A lot of the people in the Jewish camp were stuck in there until 1949. So, after their liberation from the Nazis, they were, in effect, imprisoned by the British. This was undoubtedly, in most cases, a more benign imprisonment, but it was imprisonment nevertheless.

But as I have said several times already, it is no different - hell, it was probably better than - how asylum seekers get treated the world over now. And they can be stuck in those camps for years as well.

@Captain_Amazing

The British treatment of displaced persons at Bergen-Belsen was, in some ways, I’d say, criminal, with their policy of refusing to feed “unauthorized” refugees. The British were certainly harshest in their treatment of displaced Jews, and that was largely because of the British policy on Palestine. From here(bolding mine):

I would recommend that essay to you, by the way.

I’ll give it a go, but 22:15 on a friday night isn’t my ideal time for reading such things. Sometime over the weekend.

[Alessan]

Huh. Now I know why there’s a La Guardia Street in Tel Aviv.

Thanks, Captain!

[ElvisL1ves]

That essay says nothing at all about Jews being denied exit from Bergen-Belsen if they so wished, in fact it very thoroughly cites the British desire that they would. It does include discussion of the thousands of Jewish refugees trying to get INTO the place, where they’d have a semi-dependable food supply etc. Not a word about barbed wire, either, although some measures obviously would have had to be taken to limit the unauthorized influx.

IOW you do agree about poor Finn’s grasp of reality.

[FinnAgain]

@Captain_Amazing

In the case he’s talking about, he’s talking about 4,500 people, and they could have let them into Palestine.

It was the Exodus passengers who were imprisoned in Poppendorf.

Yep. They also captured 10’s of thousands of other Jews and imprisoned tens them in Cyprus. The Exodus was just what brought the British’ brutality and inhumanity to the world stage.

And even the tens of thousands in the camps they liberated were re-imprisoned and not allowed to immigrate to Palestine. Amanset just supports that atrocity for whatever reason, I can’t fathom it. He honestly doesn’t even seem to realize that there’s something wrong with his utter lack of human compassion, morality, or empathy. “Imprison those damn Jews behind barbed wire and snipers, and don’t let them leave! And if you catch any trying to sneak into a land that accepts them and will take in as many as can get there, imprison those too! And don’t let the Jews into Palestine, because you’re busy arming the Arabs and trying to disarm the Jews, and much of your local officer corp will go on to lead the Arabs in their attempted genocide while you maintain mutual-defense treaties with the Arabs attacking Israel and fly recon sorties for Egypt. And then keep more than 10,000 and women imprisoned until about a year after Israel exists as a sovereign state and will still accept the refugees. And those ungrateful Jews should be thankful for such treatment, if it wasn’t for revisionist historians!!!”

And he has the nerve to accuse me of jingoism.

@amanset

As you have been asked before, please tell us anything, ANYTHING, that you disagree with Israeli policy on.

Already posted it in this thread as well as the one FoieGrasisEvil started, you stupid mouthbreating son of a whore who can’t deal with my arguments and lies about me instead. Seriously, I can’t wait for the day in GD when lying scum like you have to debate the issues rather than flaming me. Just like you scurried away when you drew your Warning, I’ll expect a mass-scurrying, a vermin exodus, if you will. Good times, good times.

@amanset

He has massive issues with Jews being kept in the German barracks at Bersen-Belsen.

No you stupid son of a bitch, I’ve made this very clear, many times. The problem is not allowing Jews to live in a baracks, it’s imprisoning them behind barbed wire and snipers, not allowing them to emmigrate and capturing other Jews who tried to immigrate to Palestine and similarly imprisoning them behind barbed wire and snipers. Including more than 10,000 human beings who were similarly imprisoned even when Israel as a sovereign nation, even when Britain’s own fact-finding team suggested that at least 100,000 Jews be allowed to immigrate, even when UNSCOP set up a situation that would have allowed immigration.

WTF is wrong with you, you moral-pervert?

@amanset

he hasn’t offered up any other ideas as to what the British should have done,

You are lying, again. I just said a few posts up that they could have let them emigrate. Are you addicted to lying, or just very, very stupid? Nor is the problem “just that they’re British”, but, again, the British captured and imprisoned Jews trying to get into Palestine, in at least one case engaging in piracy on the high seas and murder to capture the Exodus and then imprisoning those Jews behind barbed wire and snipers. (Is any of this starting to sink into your fucking noggin?)

@amanset

SS Exodus was possibly a mistake. Without having experienced the situation in Palestine at the time and the impact of dumping 4,500 Jews there,

This is why you’re a moral leper. They could have allowed them to immigrate to a land that was accepting and would have taken care of them… or they could engage in piracy, murder crew members, capture the Jews, put them in prison ships bound for Europe, and then transport them by train (beating the shit out of them to keep them in line) to a concentration camp with barbed wire and snipers.

And you think it might “possibly” have been a mistake.

@amanset

It still doesn’t explain exactly what Finn Again thinks the British should have done with 60,000 sick, dying, malnourished prisoners though.

Yet again, you fucking chimp-spawn: treat their injuries, take down the fucking barbed wire and snipers, and then let them emigrate. What part of “not capturing and imprisoning Holocaust survivors” is giving you trouble, exactly?

@amanset

Again. Tell me where I am lying. Tell me exactly. Point it out.

There, you’re just being a disingenuous moral leper. Faced with not taking down the barbed wire for years and not guarding the camps with armed guards to keep the inmates in, and not imprisoning Jews there in the first place and simply letting them go to Palestine, you’re pretending that the only issue is that they didn’t have lots of cushy real estate to put the Jews up in.

As for what you’re lying about, again, by supporting the British policies, you are supporting policies that consisted of capturing Jews trying to flee to Palestine and imprisoning them, Cyprus, Poppendorf, whatever. You are support the British capturing Jews and putting them in concentration camps when they were nearly on the shores of a friendly land that would have accepted all of them and given them homes. That’s just morally abhorrent, and it’s disgusting that you’d try to justify it. And you claimed that although you supported the British policy, that you’re not really supporting it. You claimed that it was a lie that you supported imprisoning Jews in concentration camps behind barbed wire and snipers, and then reiterated that you had no problem with the British program. Why you’re stupid enough to demand I cite what you just said a few posts up is beyond me.

@amanset

Again, tell me where I have lied. It has now become “lies in GD”, so point me to the exact post in GD where I lied. Point out why it was a lie.

I already did you fucking idiot and pointed out why. You alleged that I am part of an “Israel can do no wrong” brigade. That is a malicious lie. Which makes you a malicious liar. Hopefully you’ll be dealt with soon enough, maybe the vile behavior of those on your side of almost each and every single Israel debate has finally gotten the mods to act and lying in order to flame me in GD won’t be permitted from filth like you anymore. Here’s hoping.

@amanset

You see, two can play at this game. Reading what you have written anyone would get the impression that the Jews were kept in the very places they had been kept as prisoners.

They were, you idiot. Your dodge is, for instance, they were re-imprisoned in Bergen Belsen, behind barbed wire (for years) and armed guards, but they were moved to a cushier barracks! Except, of course, those who were forced to live in a tent city and also prohibited from leaving. But never mind them. They were in the same damn concentration camp, under guard, and behind barbed wire, and prevented from leaving. They were just in a different building. :rolleyes:

@amanset

In other words, this was nothing like the old Bergen-Belsen prison camp, no matter how much your own prejudices wish it was.

What’s it going to take you to stop lying? Seriously, can you even tell the difference between the truth and a lie anymore? Show me, anywhere, that I said it was just like the Nazis’ administration of the camp, or how I’m “prejudiced” against the British rather than citing the actual facts of the matter. What you’re still dodging, because you are moral filth, is that the British captured and imprisoned tens of thousands of Jews behind barbed wire and snipers rather than simply letting them immigrate to Palestine.

You’ve used all sorts of dodges to justify this atrocity, from whining about how there wasn’t better housing available to, now hilariously pointing out that at least they allowed the Jews to start religious schools… while they were imprisoned behind barbed wire and snipers.
t’s funny that you are such a moral-pervert that you can’t even understand why imprisoning a people and not allowing them to leave to somewhere that would welcome them, because you’re in a military alliance with a group that’s planning on exterminating the people in that place, is a Bad Thing.

[Captain_Amazing]

@ElvisL1ves

That essay says nothing at all about Jews being denied exit from Bergen-Belsen if they so wished,

No, that essay doesn’t, but if you look here, this site points out:

British authorities forbade free departure from the camp until 1949.

IOW you do agree about poor Finn’s grasp of reality.

Obviously, I’m not a psychologist, and can’t say if he’s sane or insane. But I will say that his facts are usually correct, and his arguments usually coherent, which is more than I can say for most of his opponents.

[Jackmannii]

Moral perverts, lepers, liars, filth, chimp-spawn and self-flagellaters, oh my!

We should vote them all off the island. :mad:

[FinnAgain]

Some more on how the British treated the Jews they captured.

[

Photograph of a group of Jewish refugees being guarded by British troops as they leave train at Kuechnitz, Germany. "On German soil – Jewish refugees of Exodus 1947, who were returned by British transports from the Mediterranean, are guarded by British troops as they leave train at Kuechnitz, Germany, en route to detention camp at Poppendorf. British used clubs and fists to smash resistance by Jews in Hamburg, where ships docked.

](http://digitallibrary.usc.edu/search/controller/view/examiner-m16206.html)

@ElvisL1ves

That essay says nothing at all about Jews being denied exit from Bergen-Belsen if they so wished,

They were not allowed to emigrate to anywhere, you fool. And in other camps, they were indeed imprisoned without even the ability to leave the camp proper, like in Cyprus. You dumb fuck, the British “wanted them to leave” but denied them immigration rights to the one place on the face of the globe that would actually take them all. And yes, learn about a topic before you post on it you idiot, they did indeed prohibit people from leaving. My poor grasp of facts? You poor schmuck.

@ElvisL1ves

Not a word about barbed wire, either, although some measures obviously would have had to be taken to limit the unauthorized influx.

Barbed wire has already been cited elsewhere. As has the barbed wire and snipers at Poppendorf. I’ll cite them both again for you, because I know you haven’t got the integrity to learn about the subject before you post on it.

[

When the war ended, most Jewish DP’s were housed in camps behind barbed wire in poor conditions. Until the State of Israel was established in 1948, legal immigration to Palestine was blocked by official British policy.
[…]
The Jewish survivors languished in camps primarily in the Allied zones of occupation in Germany. At first the DPs lived behind barbed wire fences under guard in camps that included former concentration camps. For example, in the British zone the survivors were held at the former Bergen-Belsen concentration camp.

](http://www.holocaustsurvivors.org/cgi-bin/data.show.pl?di=record&da=encyclopedia&ke=51)

This is Poppendorf.

This is Poppendorf.

[

In early July 1947, Jewish DPs were moved from camps in Germany to transit camps in the south of France. With the cooperation of several French Socialist cabinet ministers, they boarded the President Warfield at the old port of Sete, near Marseilles. Once it was out to sea, the vessel was renamed the Exodus 1947. The ship was intercepted by the British navy off the coast of Palestine. The sailors were able to board the vessel, tow it to Haifa, and unload its passengers only after an extended struggle, which left two passengers and one crew member dead and many injured. In the port of Haifa the illegal immigrants were transferred by force to three British vessels–the Ocean Vigour, Runnymede Park, and Empire Rival-- to be taken back to France. This marked a significant change in British policy from what had been the standard procedure since August 1946, namely, the deportation of all apprehended illegal immigrants to detention camps in Cyprus. When the ships arrived in France on July 28, most of the passengers chose to remain on board. The French refused to accede to the British demand to force them out. For a month the three ships remained anchored near Port-de-Bouc. The refugee passengers suffered under grueling conditions. Finally, after a hunger strike, the British decided to return the refugees to DP camps in Germany. The ships arrived in Hamburg on September 8 and their passengers were forcibly removed by British soldiers. From Hamburg, they were taken by prisoner trains with barred windows to the Poppendorf and Amstau DP camps in the British zone. Most of the Exodus refugees remained in the DP camps for over a year, reaching Israel only after the state was established in May 1948

](http://resources.ushmm.org/inquery/uia_doc.php/query/1?uf=uia_jzkhva)

This is Poppendorf.
But good rationalization, you sick fuck. The barbed wire and snipers (facing inwards) were there to keep other people out.

@Jackmannii

Moral perverts, lepers, liars, filth, chimp-spawn and self-flagellaters, oh my!

We should vote them all off the island. :mad:

~shrugs~
They do have a habit of lying, and supporting the capture and imprisonment of Holocaust survivors when they had a refuge ready and willing to accept them is morally repugnant. I have nothing, at all, nice to say for those who support such atrocities and, in the same breath, complain that I’m jingoistic and support immoral acts.

[Baron_Greenback]

@FinnAgain

What you’re still dodging, because you are moral filth, is that the British captured and imprisoned tens of thousands of Jews behind barbed wire and snipers rather than simply letting them immigrate to Palestine.

I think you’ll find that it wasn’t so much “captured and imprisoned” as “gave sanctuary, fed and watered” with larger self-interest in mind, as countries do, even Israel. Hope this helps.

Show me, anywhere, that I said it was just like the Nazis’ administration of the camp, or how I’m “prejudiced” against the British rather than citing the actual facts of the matter.

Possibly your hysterical use of the phrase “concentration camp” many times in this thread?

[ivan_astikov]

You know who else had a bit of a tough time during WW2?

Non-jews!

Yup, hard to believe it, but there were 14 million other people killed and many millions more displaced, during that conflict.

[Baron_Greenback]

@ivan_astikov

You know who else had a bit of a tough time during WW2?

Non-jews!

Yup, hard to believe it, but there were 14 million other people killed and many millions more displaced, during that conflict.

ivan, you really are a bit of dick.

Eta: You are still a bit of a dick, but I mistook you for ivn1188, sorry.

1188, huh?

[ivn1188]

TIME FOR A STATS BREAK

Number of times in this thread FinnAgain has used the word:

Pervert: 8
Stupid: 30 (surprisingly low, but I didn’t check for synonyms)
Racist: 46
Liar/lying: 110 (!)

Word count: 17,511.
Character count: 83,125. 100,096 with spaces.

Pages as cut and pasted into word: 50.

Being a raging TL;DR lunatic: Priceless.

[FinnAgain]

@Baron_Greenback

I think you’ll find that it wasn’t so much “captured and imprisoned” as “gave sanctuary, fed and watered”

You can not just make up your own facts here.
The British has an open, acknowledged and confirmed policy of capturing those Jews who tried to get into Palestine and imprisoning them in Cyprus. Tens of thousands of them… Plus thousands already mentioned who were captured in an act of piracy in international waters, with three people being bludgeoned to death by the British, then shipped in prison ships to Europe, beaten to force them to get into prisoner-transport trains in Germany, and put behind barbed wire and snipers in Poppendorf.

Even those Jews who did congregate at some of the other DP camps weren’t allowed free movements and we not allowed to emigrate to the only place on Earth that would take them, all of them, without reservation, and would provide for them. That you’re defending Britain’s morally repulsive behavior is shameful.

@Baron_Greenback

Possibly your hysterical use of the phrase “concentration camp” many times in this thread?

:rolleyes:
Yes, it’s very hysterical to point out that when you imprison people behind barbed wire and snipers, it might just be correct to call it a concentration camp. What, would you prefer the American euphemism “internment camps?”
I’ll also note that my continued use of the phrase ‘concentration camps’ denotes the fact that the British often imprisoned the Jews in facilitates that were Nazi concentration camps. Some times with the barbed wire and guard towers left intact, and manned by snipers.

Talking about jingoism, rather than self-flagellating or being getting all bombastic and claiming that the British didn’t do anything right, at all, maybe you can just bring yourself to say that, yeah, capturing and imprisoning Jews was wrong. Engaging in piracy and murder to capture and imprison Jews was wrong. Preventing Jews from emigrating freely was wrong. Keeping more than 10,000 Jews prisoners in Cyprus until about a year after Israel was already a sovereign nation was wrong. Denying Jews immigration rights into Palestine because the British were allied with the Arabs, had issued the series of racist White Papers barring Jewish immigration, were arming the Arabs and British officers would go on to lead the Arab Legion in the '48 war are all Bad Things.

Or pretend that those tens of thousands they held against their will and prevented from entering Palestine should be grateful for their imprisonment.

[ivn1188]

@ivn1188

Word count: 17,511.
Character count: 83,125. 100,096 with spaces.

For comparison, BTW, the entire book of Genesis runs about 40k words, and covers a lot more ground.

[Merijeek]

@ivn1188

For comparison, BTW, the entire book of Genesis runs about 40k words, and covers a lot more ground.

So, you’re saying that I’m right when I point out that he’s a prick who has been making the exact same post over and over for years?

Go, empirical evidence!

-Joe

[FinnAgain]

No no no. Let me help you.
Ivy is trolling me because he’s been obsessed with me for a long time now and he’s saying anything that he thinks will get a rise out of me since he’s admitted that one of the reasons he posts on this message board is to troll me. Sad, but true.

You, on the other hand, seem to simply be a bitter idiot and mistake discussion of the same topic as ‘the same post’. And just like ivy, you don’t have the intellectual integrity to even look at whether or not I’m correct when I point out that something is racist, or that someone is lying, or whatever.
It’s a bit like getting upset that someone who posts in global warming threads uses the word “climate” a lot.
It’s not very smart, is all I’m saying.

Well, that and you should kinda have the wherewithal to be ashamed of reading multiple threads on the same topic and then getting upset that when the same lies are used by the same people in the same topic, the same factual refutations get used. You might also have some intellectual integrity and take the people to task who are engaging in the behavior I’ve pointed out, rather than me for pointing it out. Or you could have the stones to show how I’m wrong about my claims, if you really think I am and you’re not just being a whiny bitch about the fact that I’ve made those claims.

But maybe we can save such advanced concepts for another date.

[Jackmannii]

@ivan_astikov

You know who else had a bit of a tough time during WW2?

Non-jews!

Yup, hard to believe it, but there were 14 million other people killed and many millions more displaced, during that conflict.

And let’s not forget morons.

Thousands, nay millions of morons were killed during WWII and other recent wars. But do we have a special Moron Museum and programs of remembrance for all the slack-jawed idiots who perished? No!

ivan, I suggest you get on this pronto to ensure that your people are given their proper place in history.