(And I should point out that the ties of Perle and Wolfowitz to Israel went beyond them simply being “Joos” as you so charmingly put it. Perle, for example, had been the author of a 1996 policy paper for Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu, entitled A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm. One of the chief propositions of that policy paper was that, for the sake of Israel’s security, Saddam Hussein must be removed from power.)
You called me a liar before and challenged me to show where you had been insinuating conspiracies. I linked to a thread where you did just that and quoted you. Now you’re citing an edited version of just one of your posts and leaving out the juicy stuff, including where you ask (in classic Just Asking Questions fashion) whether all your blather about the PNAC Mystery Men adds up to a conspiracy and say (in best nudge nudge wink wink style) “Not necessarily” and then go on to say in your next post:
This is precisely the crap I called you on. After all this time you’re still trying to defend it.
Oh, you’re a martyr too? Poor spoke, crucified for raising critical issues like your conviction that foreign aid to Israel (and Israel only) is threatening the collapse of our infrastructure.
No one has to turn you into a wacky conspiracy theorist. You’ve accomplished that feat all by yourself.
Beyond that, you’d enhance your miniscule credibility by ceasing to insinuate that those who disagree with you have Dual Loyalists or are agents for a foreign power. You would not be pleased to have someone label you as a terrorist sympathizer with dual loyalty to Hamas or being in the pocket of Arab oil interests, and it would be a similar bankrupt strategy aimed at sliming the opposition and distracting from how to solve actual problems.
It goes to “substance”.
While consistently posting in a way that belies this claim. Hey, believe as you like, you’re entitled to your opinions.
The bit about being a wonderful “friend to Israel”* and simultaneously taking great pains to attack another poster for allegedly being so damaging to your shared cause (snerk) reeks of concern troll.
*Personally I don’t view myself as such. I have somewhat more sympathy for that side (though less than formerly - and in a recent GD thread called for financial sanctions against Israel over East Jerusalem settlement construction)… “Friend of Israel” sounds like a deal where they send you an official clothing patch and special deals on recordings by the Negev Campfire Singers. I’ll pass, thanks.
Why, thank you! In the same spirit of reciprocity, I cordially invite you to bite me!
Spoke (and elucidator too, it seems), you should have the decency to be ashamed of yourselves.
And the more you deny what is obvious,the more you sound like every typical racist crank out there. (Albeit you’re the polite kind of judeophobe who doesn’t come right out and claim that Jews are evil, merely that the ones don’t share your politics are all potential traitors who must be watched. It’s just the Bad Jews you have a problem with, ya know, the ones who aren’t persuaded by the pure light of your truthful claims and glorious reason, and who are therefore suspect.)
You’re Just Asking Questions, not suggesting a conspiracy, exactly, just that every Jew who dares have different politics than you is a potential traitor who must be watched for signs of disloyalty due to their treacherous Jewish ways and ideological impurity.
You’re Just Asking Questions, it’s not a conspiracy, exactly, it’s just a spontaneous creation of many Traitor Jews, working against their home, in cells that happen to number only one member and don’t cooperate with each other save by working for Israel’s benefit at America’s harm.
You’re Just Asking Questions, it’s not a conspiracy, exactly, it’s just that every Jew who disagrees with you might be working on their own, in the service of their traitorous loyalty to a foreign power, to subvert own homes for the sake of a foreign power.
You’re Just Asking Questions, it’s not an international conspiracy, exactly, it’s just that maybe International Jewry is somewhat like International Communism, and while the Red Scare was silly, maybe we really do need to start taking a good long, hard look at American Jews, lest they indulge their ethnic or religious inclinations and betray us all. Hypothetically, of course.
But you’re Just Asking Questions, not suggesting a conspiracy, exactly, just that those Traitor Jews are so blinded by their loyalty to a foreign power that they can’t even be trusted to have their own opinions. At least, not if their opinions differ from yours.
God help us if people like you ever gained any real power, for down your path lies the nightmare of history that some of us are still trying to awaken from.
Likewise, readers should read the actual paper “A Clean Break”. What it actually says is not that the US should do anything for the sake of Israeli security, let alone topple Sadaam, but that:
Likewise, it states that Israel should work with its regional neighbors, not the US, to deal with Sadaam. And it is more than a bit odd to see the simple statement that Sadaam was a security threat to Israel posed as some sort of evidence of Traitor Jew status in spoke’s mind. Most folks will remember Sadaam attacking Israel during the Gulf War and offering payment to families of suicide bombers who killed innocent Israelis. But the fact that Iraq was a security threat for Israel coupled with the explicit statement that Israel must act on its own without US help, to spoke, becomes just another bit of support for his Conspiracy Theory.
I always find it interesting who such conspiracy mongers tend to share as ideological cousins…
[
](http://www.davidduke.com/general/is-discussing-jewish-dual-loyalty-anti-semitic_507.html)
Now, I don’t know for sure if spoke is a racist in a similar vein. He certainly attempts to demonize any Jew who has the temerity, the sheer audacity to have their own politics on Israel. He will go so far as to lie and claim that even those who do criticize Israel will not tolerate any criticism of Israel. In fact, it seems, we have a truly objective metric whereby we can tell the chance of Jewish Treachery: the level to which they disagree with spoke’s politics on Israel. Now, he may or may not be a bit racist, I think he probably is (elucidator is less clear, I’m pretty sure that with his utter lack of intellectual integrity, he’s only supporting spoke because spoke is arguing against me). Even if their paranoid conspiracy nuttery isn’t based on racism, only ignorance and fear, it is disturbing that this shit has become something approaching mainstreamed. Even more disturbing is that good men stand by and do nothing while such positions are voiced. Of course, readers should note that to whatever degree spoke suffers from judeophobia and judeopathy, it’s not because of his opposition to Israel policies, but *because of his Conspiracy Theory that seeks to slander any Jew who has the traitorous urges to disagree with spoke’s politics. *
In a way, such folks demonstrate the need for an Israel. Even in 2010 in the United States of America, the idea that Jews are a potentially dangerous foreign body that must be watched closely for ideological purity lest they betray that state is alive and well, and as this thread attests, can go unremarked as people focus on personal attacks upon a dastardly Israel defender for having the nerve to get upset by dishonesty and those who trade in fictions. As long as such a pattern of behavior is not only not condemned, but begins to gain currency, it is a worrisome development for an ethnic group which has often seen exactly such a runup as the herald to horrors.
And the more you threaten Jews as an ethnic group (or a religious group) with the same accusations that have proceeded countless acts of butchery, the more some Jews will have to wonder if it might not be a bit nice to have someone place to run to should the tide rise above the few whackos.
And let’s not pretend, for a minute, that this would stand if most other ethnic groups were the target. If a white protestant of anglo-saxon descent argued that we needed stronger bonds with NATO, we would not call him a Britain Firster. When black Americans argued against the Apartheid policies of South Africa, policies we did not do enough to combat for quite some time, people of good character did not allege that their political platform marked them out as potential traitors who needed to be watched. Arabs and Muslims who may hold views in opposition to Israel are, rightly, not accused by any decent human being of being traitorous pawns of International Islam. But it’s okay if a Jew disagrees with you on America’s relationship to Israel. Then he’s an Israel Firster and a potential traitor.
People in America and posters in this thread routinely stand by while fiction and fallacy are used to support their narratives, while even those who criticize Israel and demand a cease to all settlement expansion are called potential traitors, in the thrall of the Jewish State. And such slander is leveled simply because they disagree with the position of anti-Israel hardliners who support and peddle deliberate, agenda-driven fictions, like Carter. Thus the standard becomes that if a Jew dares oppose dishonesty and extremism that would seek to use fiction in the service of demonization, they must be carefully studied to determine just how much of a potential traitor they are.
Even now we have elucidator, pulling his clown mask off for a moment to seriously equate those dedicated to “international Communism” with, what, “international Jewry”? As he asks, innocently, if it might not be a bad idea to keep an eye on an entire ethnic group in case they manifest such disloyalty. This while repeating the fiction that he is ‘pro Israel’ or a “friend to Israel”. This from the same poster who has attempted to demonize every attempt at Israeli self defense and claimed that his friendship made him argue that Israel should just stand by and let its citizens be killed without any defensive response, at all. Out of friendship. And it is through friendship that he claims that his goal is “peace” while demanding that Israel take a unilateral first step (ignoring that it has already done so, and that it’s made many peace offers which were rejected). But, out of friendship, he is willing to say that Israel has no right to self defense. And out of friendship he will conveniently forget that Israel has repeatedly made the first move towards peace and unilaterally moved towards peace, and it is out of the same friendship that he will claim it hasn’t but that it needs to do so (again).
And all of this is nothing new, it goes on and on, and here the Dope really does serve as a microcosm for the state of discourse about such subjects.
To the resounding silence of those who should know better.
Wow, they must have been too slow with the rabies shots.
Oh, and thanks Jack. I’d never heard the phrase “concern troll” before but after a quick bit of googling it seems to sum up Lucy’s behavior to a T. What a lovely little pithy phrase. Concern troll… I like it.
I’m wondering how many pages this thread will reach before one of the participants tires of the unending back and forth.
This illustrates to me that the Israel/Palestine “problem” is a lot more nuanced and complicated than some people try to portray. If we as Westerners (I assume) cannot agree on particulars WRT the situation with our erstwhile friends the Israelis in the Middle East, then how in the fuck can we possibly believe the actual situation between Israel and Palestine (and indeed, the surrounding Arab nations at large) will ever be anything other than at loggerheads?
Its disheartening, to say the least. I fear something really bad and dramatic will have to happen before one side or the other will try to shed its prejudices and come to reason.
I don’t think all jews are evil. I do think some of them more than likely are - the law of averages will probably back me up on that.
I mainly believe that anyone who identifies themself totally with one label, such as jew, muslim or christian, is probably a pathetic piece of shit and is selling themself short as a human being.
Wow, really? There are plenty of people on this Earth that are from these religions that you list that are wonderful, well-adjusted folks that wish the same as we all do…for peace.
I’m being a little hyperbolic, but in general, I haven’t got much respect for people who define themselves by their religion. Hey ho.
Well, there are many people that don’t do that and are still religious. It doesn’t define whom they are, but what their beliefs are in terms of worshipping God or whomever. It certainly doesn’t make them in any way dysfunctional as people, despite what some militant atheists might say.
As soon as the dishonesty and the fictions and the fallacy stops, I’ll be happy to let it go. (Oh yeah, and the racist conspiracy theories). I imagine that they’ll let it go when I stop pointing out said dishonesty, fiction and fallacy. Still like a retraction to a lot of nonsense, like spoke’s defense of Jimmy Carter despite clear evidence that carter routinely makes ‘honest mistakes’ that demonize one side and absolve the second. So far his answers have been to state that he won’t debate facts, that sure all the ‘honest mistakes’ in Carter’s book seem driven by an agenda to demonize Israel and absolve the Palestinians but, and he’s Just Asking Questions here, maybe there are a lot of ‘honest mistakes’ that also demonize the Palestinians and praise the Israelis. Not that he can find any, mind you, but hey, he’s Just Asking Questions over here. It was also sorta sad that after his dodge of “philanthropy negates potential prejudice” was debunked, folks quickly go to claiming that any possible debunking of such a claim would imply that Carter was just like the example being given.
This, I think, it an essential point that you’re missing FGIE: it’s not just a ‘back and forth’. Some folks make demonstratively false claims, or use bogus analogies, and fallacious logic and get caught, and then try to defend it, or repeat it, or change the subject to something else. And other point out such beahvior.
As I’ve said many times, if these sorts of debates didn’t, always and without fail, degenerate into 95% fact checking and fallacy busting, we might actually have a decent discussion of where to go from here. I’ve had such conversations with DSeid, for example. He and I have significant disagreements on Israeli policy, but I’ve never seen him be anything but scrupulous accurate and intellectually honest. The ‘back and forth’ you’re seeing is one group of people saying things that are simply false or fallacies, and then refusing to back down.
Of curse it’s a heck of a lot more nuanced and complicated, which is part of why dishonesty and deception absolutely hobbles honest debate. If 9 out of 10 posts have to be spent debunking non-facts and pointing out fallacious logic, it’s hard to focus on the actual facts and how complicated they are in context.
But don’t let it get you down. This is just message board bullshit, despite posturing on behalf of a few clowns. What’s said here no more reflects or informs the peace process than the anti-Bush tirades stopped his reelection.
Well, yeah, but to me…its representative of a cross-section of what people actually believe, and while I can’t say exactly what my feelings are on the subject, if there are in fact lies and deception afoot, these beliefs expressed here represent beliefs of people on the ground in the region writ large.
The only thing that gets me down about the whole matter is how infuriatingly repetitive the “cycle of violence” and tit-for-tat bullshit is, and it costs innocent people their lives on both sides of the spectrum, and I just cannot envision an end to it as long as Palestinians believe Jews “drink Arab baby blood” or Jews believe that Palestinians are somehow sub-human and akin to dirty dogs.
Sad Panda, that’s me. It’s just…really sad that this continues as it does with no end in sight.
We are not obliged to succeed. We are obliged to try.
“There is no try, there is only do or”…oh, just pull your sorry ass up by your bootstraps already.
Seven Deadly Sins are outlined, the eighth is Despair. Never give in to despair, never give an inch, live like you believe in God even if you don’t. Maybe especially if you don’t.
It can be done, it has been done, it will be done again. The Irish have found the way to peace after centuries of bloody horror, it can be done. Of course, it must be noted that the Irish are a the most advanced branch of the human species, but still…
Peace.
Maybe so. I’m Irish by blood and Catholic Italian by adoption…Sunday stuffed shell dinners amongst extended family and elaborate conversations in the kitchen, a taste for the pint…
Aye!
As to your point about Israel…the only reason why I have all but given up hope that stability will ever exist over there (and hence demand the USA’s direct involvement) is that its a different situation than the Irish vs English. Different how, I’m not certain…it has more of an apocalyptic feel to it, given the modern weaponry involved, and the fact that Ireland versus England was more of a “one on one” deal WRT nations, whereas its essentially Israel against the rest of an entire region over there.
I just don’t think its the same. I have faint hope, but that’s it. Maybe it doesn’t affect me directly living an ocean away and all, but…maybe in some endgame type of scenario, one I don’t think is all that improbable…it will.
Essentially: I don’t want my two young sons to be sent over to the ME to die in a godforsaken desert, especially under less than auspicious circumstances. I’m too old to go back to the desert…I’ve been there before. It absolutely fucking sucks. Frankly, I cannot fathom why anyone would ever even want to live there (although I realize its not ALL desert).
I’d say on this point you’re correct, and I believe it is impossible to have an honest discussion when one coterie ‘s stock in trade is dishonesty and deception. Spoke’s use of Carter as cite shows the problem. Clear, objective mistakes were broought to light that carter did or should have known were false. In at least one case, he’d admitted he knew his claim was false before going on to make it again in writing. And instead of spoke saying "yeah, that book sucks, it uses fiction and falsehood driven by an agenda to demonize one group and sanctify another, we get endless bullshit about house building, or how philanthropy negates potential bigotry. And then naturally when it’s shown that even philanthropists can be bigots, the dodge itself isn’t’ retracted but the subject is changed to how horrible it is to rebut the fiction/dodge by providing a counter example. While Lucy argues that if someone’s claim is impossible to prove (it wasn’t Lucy is just ignorant of the facts) then it’s wrong and unreasonable to point out that someone can’t support their own argument.
Again such partners in debate, honest discussion itself becomes impossible until they quit it with their games. Until then the ‘back and forth’ you’re seeing are people posting fictional claims, other refuting then and the first posters playing games to try to slip some rhetorical points onto the scoreboard. Think of it, instead of a ‘back and forth’ or ‘tit for tat’, as a referee catching someone offside and calling a foul complete with video tape, and that person denying that they did anything wrong, and then doing it again. And when the ref points out that they’ve again broken the rules, they decide that they’d much rather talk about the ref’s mother, or what have you.
The very idea of a ‘cycle of violence’ is somewhat misleading and unique to this debate. We don’t say that there is a ‘cycle of violence’ if cops raid a meth lab and later meth heads shoot some cops. We recognize that one side is acting properly and the second isn’t , and the response is not then to say that cops and meth lab operators have to come to a deal rather than saying that it’s simply wrong and to be opposed.
But I’d also note that it’s very much an international debate/conflict. One of the few where the media itself is a weapon used by both sides. Tibet doesn’t routinely garner front page articles or handwringing from pundits for weeks. The I/P situation is unque in that the real battles these days are fought in public opinion and international coalitions. But the folks on message boards are a secondary (or tertiary), not a primary feature of the conflict. We’re folks in a bar arguing politics, not people in the news trying to shape public opinion .
But they don’t. There is legitimate worry that every time they’ve offered massive peace deals or unilaterally left territory (in the case Gaza leaving behind multi-million dollar state of the art greenhouses that the Palestinians tore apartin a frenzy of looting, war has been the only response. After Camp David and Taba, Arafat’s choice was to stop negotiating and go to war. After the evacuation of all settlements from Gaza, the reaction was to start launching rockets into Israel. And yes, PA and Hamas TV, sermons, summer camps, etc… are all dedicated to indoctrinating children to be racists and killers.
Something has to be done about that. * Provide a credible partner for peace, clamp down on genocidal incitement, and there will be peace. The Israelis don’t view the Palestinians as sub human, they view them largely as a group dedicated to racial hate and violence, and they’re not wrong. That is one of the things that has to change for a peace settlement to be workable.
(emphasis woefully added)
But not “subhuman”. Well, good. I guess.
Your choice of words reminds me of something; I went to graduate school with a girl from Israel. For some reason when we were talking the topic of the Palestinians came up; she said “of course the Palestinians can’t be reasoned with, they’re sub-humans.”
That shocked me, because in every other respect she was basically the arch-typical hippie liberal girl, and if someone had said that about any other nationality/race she would have been the first one to tell them how evil/racist they were. She said it so casually and comfortably and without reflection that it shocked me. It reminded me of the time I was in Texas and overheard some good ol’ boys making jokes about “niggers.”