Finn, I’ll buy most of your last post for a dollar, but I honestly believe that Israelis view the Palestinians in much the same light of racial hatred that the Palestinians view the Israelis.
I think BOTH sides are not only indoctrinated to hate the other as you say about the Palestinians, I think its pretty much inevitable that they would.
Regardless of the circumstances that got the Palestinians where they are (which, in my humble and uninformed opinion is bad leadership and investing in a hate-based life of continuous retribution), they are still people, and the Israelis would go a long way as to viewing them as such.
The reason I mentioned the American Indians in an earlier post (which I got chastised for for asking questions that were hypothetical in nature) is that I wonder at Israel’s sincerity when it claims it wants peace, when it is obviously the superior power in the equation. Especially factoring in American financial support and military know-how.
I have to stop now or I’ll go off on an endless rant about America.
Well, I’m sure that some are racists.
Just curious though, what year was it? IIRC Israel went to great lengths to change its educational curriculum in order to fight just such potential attitudes and opposition to peace. It was after…Oslo I’m thinking, but maybe Wye.
I can’t credit that as plausible. Sure, some do, but all or even most? Papers like Haaretz are routinely critical of Israel’s stance, Israeli universities in many ways mirror the debate that goes on at US campuses.
We have/are seeing a lot of backlash, that’s true. The peace initiative in the 1990’s was a hard sell for a portion of the Israeli populace (as Rabin found out when he was martyred for it). And many Israelis were shocked that the reaction to the negotiations of 2000-2001 was that Arafat planned and launched a war, one that essentially lasted right up until Hamas was elected. And that the unilateral withdrawal from Gaza was followed up by rockets. Peace is now a bit of a hard sell, but I don’t think it’s impossible.
I might have missed some evidence, but I just don’t see it. Palestinian children are literally indoctrinated, through children’s television programming, school curriculum, by religious leaders over the official TV networks and so on. I’m unaware of anything similar that goes on in Israel.
You’re pretty much right about the causes, but I can’t see anything that suggests that the Israelis don’t view the Palestinians as human. Do you have any cites?
Spoke, please stop embarrassing yourself.
It’s clear that even though you linked to fallacies, they are all, without excpetion, used incorrectly. Just another ‘honest mistake’.
Any knowledgeable person reading along will notice that you’re lying, too. Why do this to yourself? Do you think nobody will click on the links, or that on the Straight Dope of all places, people don’t know the definition of fallacies as basic as ad hominem and that it means ignoring an argument to attack a person rather than eviscerating an argument and also attacking the person who made it? Or that Dopers of all people will think that the fallacy of personal attack means that any argument in which you insult someone is a fallacy, rather than that if you show that their claims are false and/or without support and also insult them, you’ve committed a fallacy? Do you think you’ll fool anybody into thinking that the kind of dangerous racism you preach isn’t shown to have a direct causal relationship, time and again throughout history, with Jewish persecution? That you’ll fool anybody into thinking that virulent racism like you advocate is harmless and saying that same racism has lead to problems time and time again is some kind of slippery slope fallacy? Yeah, and saying that blacks might have a reason to be concerned when folks start burning crosses on their lawn is totally a slipper slope fallacy, too.
Even if they don’t already know that you’re full of shit, all someone has to do is click through to the links and see that, yep, the actual description of the fallacies has nothing to do with your claims. I’d advise everybody to do that, as long as you’ve thoughtfully provided your own debunking. (Yet again as a way to try to change the subject when you’re caught at your standard games). You called Jack a liar and, yep, he showed that you were the one lying and that, yep, you are a supporter of an anti-Semitic Conspiracy Theory that you not only won’t repudiate, but continue to support.
Why do you do this to yourself?
Have you no shame?
Oh, and speaking of how you try to avoid the facts by either changing the subject or the patent dishonesty you’ve just shown:
Truly, I am ashamed to point out that my factual challenges have yet to be answered by spoke. Only an asshole would do such a thing. And only a fine, upstanding fellow, such as yourself, would ignore that spoke hasn’t answered the questions, and that spoke just dishonestly cited a foundation dedicated to the memory of Holocaust victims, in order to fabricate inaccurate claims of fallacies and get out of addressing the facts of his racism. Nobody could have predicted that spoke’s chosen tactics are to dishonestly change the subject whenever he’s caught out at something.
Speaking of racists, come on Lucy, we haven’t had a really funny bit of racist ranting since Mister Obvious got banned. Go for it! Ivan wimped out, spoke is shiftier than a ferret on meth, but perhaps you can take off your clown mask long enough to step up to the plate? Give it the college try old man, and just let your racist-freak flag fly.
Tell us all about how we can best deal with all those potential Traitor Jews. Do we simply stamp “JEW” onto their driver’s licenses and passports so as to make sure they’re marked and counted should they attempt to get into politics? Can they betray our entire nation on behalf of Global Jewry and the Jewish State if they’re elected at the state level, or do we only need to worry about Traitor Jews on the federal level? Are we really protecting our nation, and answering the Jewish Question, if we only look at politicians though? Perhaps we need to monitor how regular, non-politician Potential Traitor Jews vote. After all, maybe all those Traitor Jews are working in concert-but-independently to bring America down by voting for candidates who are helping the Zionists Occupy our Government? Such possibilities must be considered, I’m Just Asking Questions over here. But perhaps merely identifying their licenses and passports isn’t enough, because you don’t always get a chance to demand a Jew display his or her papers (I’m sure you can come up with a way to change that). Perhaps newspaper columns and TV shows should have a prominent “a JEW is speaking” stamped on them, so that the populace can properly be on guard and ready to root out the earliest hint of Jew Treachery? Every few minutes on Terry Gross’s interviews, we can have a voiceover that says “Beware, a JEW is conducting this interview, she may be subtly trying to harm America in the service of the Jewish State. Now back to Fresh Air.”
Come now, our nation is beset by a foreign race who are a manifest danger to the Republic itself and who must be watched lest they betray us into the hands of Global Jewry. Step up and tell us how we can best deal with these, these… Jews.
Come on Lucy, have a heart. We hardly get any amusing racists around here who’ll stand up for their racism. I am eager to hear about all your plans for solving the Jewish Question and catching potential Traitor Jews.
It’s time for you to be actually funny rather than just clowning. Make with the racism already. You’ve been JAQing off about dangerous Dual Loyalty Jews, time for the moneyshot of racist paranoia. Elaborate on your fear of the Traitor Jews and stop being so boring. Come on, we’re obviously under siege by an unknown number of Traitor Jews, a threat to the nation in the same way as Communist traitors were during the Cold War. What are the risks? How may the Traitor Jews harm us? How can we spot them, and what should we do with them when we’ve caught 'em?
It’s time for you to step up and do your part for racist freaks and paranoid conspiracy nuts everywhere.
Here, I’ll start you out. “Now, I’m not an anti-semite, but…”
Come on already, give us the good stuff. I’m sure that in your many years of pondering the Jewish Threat, you’ve come up with more than one solution for how to defend ourselves from that potentially traitorous foreign body within our nation. Let us in on that vibrant mind of yours. Again, I’ll help you start:
Funny, and maybe correct in some way.
Perhaps Lucy met some Jew who annoyed him in some manner and he decided that no Jew can be trusted unless they agree with him. He’s already shown that he’s unhinged and hate-crazed enough that he doens’t care about facts, logic or personal integrity if annoying me lies at the other side of any question. Maybe that really is how his judeopathy started, maybe some Israeli girl broke his heart and this behavior is the result. Who knows, maybe your joke is right and if I keep pointing out he’s full of shit, his minor bit of racism will bloom and he’ll really begin looking under the bed for hidden Traitor Jews out to get him.
Listen, I just want some quality racism here, I don’ think that’s too much to ask. We have three racists in the thread, and not one of this has obliged. Ivan ducked out, spoke tried to change the subject by using a cite in memory of Holocaust victims to avoid addressing his racism (classy, as always), but Lucy seems to have stuck around.
Now of course, I don’t expect him to be honest enough to look at why I’d quote my own words when spoke still hasn’t answered the basic questions, because lucy will sell his mind and his integrity on the street corner to anybody arguing with me… but I do expect him to at least expand on his notion that the problem of the International Jew is similar to that of the International Communist, and what measures he thinks are proper for protecting the nation. We’ve got far too few really funny Conspiracy Theorists here, and I want lucy to just cut loose. Instead of his clowning we could get some real comedy.
First of all, stop citing a forum that’s dedicated to the memory of holocaust victims in the service of defending your anti-Jewish racism. Have just a bit of common human decency.
Second, stop lying in general. It’s not a strawman to point out exactly what you said. You can’t claim that if Jew disagrees with your politics and/or doesn’t criticize Israel often enough that he’s a potential traitor who has to be watched, and then claim it’s a strawman for someone to remember what you’ve said.
Likewise, stop posting fallacies which you obviously haven’t read. Not that “argument by question” is a logical fallacy in any case, you’re just whining because you’re being asked to back up your claims, and still refusing. Just like I’d ask you to retract your dishonesty above calling normal arguments fallacious, but it seems you’ve settled on the Gish Gallop tactic of deception in order to avoid defending your own claims, finally. At least you shut the fuck up about how Carter’s own words and behavior couldn’t be used against him since he’s a philanthropist. But you still haven’t defended your claim that his lies aren’t all agenda driven in the service of demonizing one side. You didn’t even defend your JAQing off that maybe there were a lot of anti-Palestinian lies too :rolleyes:
Speaking of you still not being able to defend your own claims:
And:
Now seems like a pretty good time to finally defend your claims.
You’re not going to, are you?
When two children are squabbling over a toy or who sits where at the table, sometimes it’s best to let the adults solve the problem out, rather than letting them decide themselves. Especially when it’s 2 retarded children with long-term grudges.
Seriously, I couldn’t possibly suggest strongly enough that readers click on spoke’s links and see if he’s being honest and the fallacies he’s citing are accurate, or if he’s Gish Galloping.
If someone rebuts your claims and shows how you’re being dishonest, then calls you an idiot, is that an ad hom fallacy or the fallacy of personal attack?
If someone shows that historically Belief A precedes and caused Event B, time and again, is that a slippery slope fallacy?
If someone shows that a paranoid conspiracy theory isn’t based on any facts, but jAQing off, is that the fallacy of appeal to ridicule? Is spoke really correct, and one cannot brush aside 9/11 Troofers who can’t prove their claims just like his claims of a dastardly Jewish conspiracy to bring down the United States are immune from being debunked, since showing they’re ridiculous and without proof is a “fallacy”?
If someone shows that another person’s views are racist views due to their merits, and that the use the same rhetoric and dodges as other racists, is that really guilt by association?
And so on.
Really read the fallacies spoke has posted to see if he’s being honest, or not.
Let me give you another example of how he’s arguing dishonesty. He claims that asking him to back up his objections and substantiate his own claims is a fallacy. Seriously. Asking someone to flesh out their position and/or prove their own point is now a “fallacy”.
And the cite he uses for that? It claims that every single question you could possibly ask of someone is fallacious. Seriously. And it’s a fallacy because asking someone to explain their position might not have a ‘snappy answer’. Seriously.
There you have it, any time you ask someone to back up their own position, you are guilty of a fallacy. :rolleyes:
Uh, that’s a question. All questions are fallacies. You are not allowed to question spoke, he is just allowed to make claims.
Do not pass go, do not get $200.00
I’ve written over 12,000 posts and have yet to hurl any racial slurs. You might want to think about the possibility that your ratio is still way above the racial-slur-median.