He must think we are stupid, as well as racist lying baby killers!
Oops, sorry ivn1188, he hasn’t called you a racist, has he?
I’d hate for you to be wrongly associated with me and my ebil wacist ways.
Yeah, I’m the troll, attempting to sully the greatness of the ebullient one.
I’m still trying to figure out what kind of racist I’d be if my hatred and invective thus far was the best I could come up with.
You want to be a racist? It’s easy. Just suggest that there might be some US citizens for whom the interests of Israel are at least as important as the interests of the US.
Ta da! That’s all it takes to join FinnAgain’s ever-lengthening list of racist dopers.
Meanwhile, far from a ‘slippery slope’, I’d like to point out why the sort of racism that spoke and elucidator preach has a direct causal relationship to suffering and horrors for Jews. It’s telling that, now, spoke is trying to pretend that instead of singling out Jews as an ethnic group, he was only talking about some random American citizens. Ya know, just one of them thar coincidences.
Except, no.
This is what the sort of racism that spoke vomits up leads to in the 21st century.
[
](http://www.nysun.com/national/discrimination-seen-in-michigan-spy-case/76770/)
[
](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/23/AR2008082301605_pf.html)
Spoke’s and Lucy’s paranoid racist fantasies are nothing new. We saw the bloodshed and horror they caused in Europe and Russia for centuries. What’s disturbing is that, without fail, treating Jews a dangerous foreign influence prone to treachery due to clannish loyalty has always, always, led to persecution and blood.
On their own, the pair of them are just nasty little racist conspiracy theorists, but the problems arise when intellectual-thugs like them gain enough power to impose Ideological Purity standards on Jews. The “good Jews” are the ones who have the “right” politics. The “bad Jews”, the ones we have to watch out for since they’re quite probably traitors, are those who don’t have the ‘right’ politics. Spoke has served as a very good object lesson for such lunatic-racism; if Jews who works for a think tank he doesn’t like, even one that advises that Israel stand on its own from US aid, then they’re possibly all Traitor Jews. If someone debunks his fictions and his fallacies, then spoke will lie and claim that they never criticize Israel… in the same thread in which they’re criticized Israel. If someone points out he’s full of shit (still waiting on that factual defense of Carter’s agenda-driven lies or a look at land ownership at any point he wants over a 1000 year time span), then they’re almost definitely a traitor Jew. Why, if someone argues that he’s full of shit in his racist paranoid conspiracy theory? That too shows that someone is most likely a Traitor Jew, and we’re lucky he spotted Jack before he could unite a cabal of Jew Doctors to nefariously, well, to nefariously do whatever it is that Dual Loyalty Jews do other than dare to have different politics than spoke. (clearly a sign that one cannot be trusted)
It’s the same old anti-Jewish hatred that was ripe in the 1930’s and 40’s. And it’s not a good thing.
Hardly a game, FinnA&A&A&A&A&A&A&A, and most certainly pertinent to your Pitting. For all your froth, let’s not lose track of the fact that you are, in fact, being pitted for being a deranged zealot when it comes to the topic of Israel. Or more especifically, the topic of “Israel Can Do No Wrong.”
Point of fact, you have actual Israeli citizens disparaging this latest blatant attempt at ethnic cleansing: Israeli groups decry army West Bank deportation rules
Self-hating Jews no doubt. Unlike your thoroughly enamored self.
Right. That should suffice for another papyrus or ten.
Enjoy.
I know, the topic that liars like you dream up whenever you can’t factually refute my arguments. You silly troll, my very first post in this thread included citations of some of my criticisms of Israel. Any particular reason you keep using that lie, or just that you like trolling? I mean, it’s obvious that you’re not only lying, but that you have to know you’re lying, because you’ve used that same lie in various other threads right after I’ve said something critical of Israel. So why the trolling?
Speaking of how you are an anti-Israel zealot and a partisan whore given to lying:
Yet again, please identify the parts of the 4th GC which you want changed, otherwise just admit that you’re a partisan shill who doesn’t care for the facts. Or admit that the 4th GC explicitly authorizes these measures and you just like slandering Israel with bullshit charges of ‘ethnic cleansing’.
And although you don’t have the honor, you should still be ashamed for calling this ethnic cleansing. Seriously. I know you’re a vile sub-human piece of filth who likes to go on about “the Jewish Lobby” and has defended the idea that Jews control US foreign policy, but this shit is low, even for you.
Groups in the linked story say that the new regulations could result in mass deportations.
There is a difference between a regulatory change that could result in mass deportations, and actually carrying out a policy of mass deportations.
The Israeli groups in question are quite properly pointing out what may be a possible danger - that the orders give arbitrary powers which are not clearly limited and thus potentially apply to thousands who could not reasonably be described as 'infiltrators" - hidden in what the authorities claim to be a mere administrative change.
It is more than a bit of an exaggeration to state this is a “…blatant attempt at ethnic cleansing”. It may be, assuming that the authorities go ahead and improperly use these powers to ethnically cleanse.
I recognize that FinnAgain is an ardent supporter of Israel, but in a recent thread I started regarding the “Israel Can Do No Wrong” issue, he laid out what he thought Israel could do better and admitted that Israel is not a perfect nation by any stretch.
I started the thread and I can’t remember what it was titled, but I’m sure its out there somewhere.
I don’t know where some of you guys get your stuff. The only thing I can see Finn being guilty of is being sometimes long-winded and staunch in his positions.
You are correct, Sir. Still, as you yourself point out, this move opens up the possibility of doing so.
Which simply adds more fuel to the already existing blaze.
A blaze that AFAICT is fanned and fueled by both sides of this issue, not just Israel.
They don’t ‘get it’ from anywhere. They’re liars who use that lie in order to flame me in GD and/or troll me, since I can’t even point out that they’re lying when they do it in GD. It really is disgusting behavior and it’s well past time that, as long as calling someone out for lying is banned in GD, lying in GD is banned too.
It’s not just more than a bit of an exaggeration, it’s Red Fury’s characteristic ultra anti-Israel partisan nature talking. While the law may or may not be overly broad, it does not allow the deportation of the populace of the West Bank. It can not honestly be described as ethnic cleansing, but honesty doesn’t serve Red’s cause. And as he’s just admitted, he was lying when he said it was ethnic cleansing, and he’s now retreated to “well, it’s possible that it may, at some undetermined point in the future, be ethnic cleansing.”
Even the wildest claims suggest “10’s of thousands” could be deported. There are something like 2.5 million Palestinians in the West Bank. Like any other conspiracy theorist, Red is positing that the Israelis are Genius Fools who can get away with ethnic cleansing but would be “ethnically cleansing” the West Bank at a rate that’s almost certainly slower than the birth rate. Like every anti-Israel zealot we see who claims that they’re conducting “ethnic cleansing” or “genocide”, all we get is hot air when it comes time for them to explain how the Palestinian population keeps on increasing year after year.
The main claims made are that Palestinians from the Gaza Strip will be returned there. That’s specifically and explicitly authorized by the 4th Geneva convention. And that foreigners, non-Palestinians could be removed by the occupying power. I’ve read the 4th Geneva Convention, nowhere, at all, does it say that people from a separate country are permitted to live in a place that has had movement and residency restricted due to security and military concerns. It does, however, explicitly allow people to be relocated and have their freedom of movement restricted in order to protect the security and in the course of military necessity of the occupying power. But nowhere can Red find a quote saying that any foreigner who wants to live there can. Because it doesn’t exist. It’s as phony as citing Oslo, a treaty violated by the PA and officially dissolved by the Hamas government.
Of course, none of this has anything to do with the thread, other than Red’s attempt to post something he doesn’t like about Israel, and do it in a dishonest and deceptive manner so he can declare victory. He has yet to retract his lie that 90% of land in the region was owned by Palestinians. If he’s not going to retract it he should at least publish a paper on it in some peer reviewed journal, those scholars who actually study the land ownership laws in the region (not to mention even the most strident anti-occupation Israeli groups) would be shocked to learn the fruits of his scholarship. Surely he can present the research that backs up a claim that is gainsaid by every single piece of available evidence we have had to date. Surely.
I got an idea, for a gesture. Maybe Israel should remove the Star of David from its flag and official stuff, and replace it with, oh, maybe nothing, maybe some solid colored star. Maybe an inscription in Hebrew and Arabic that reflect the Koranic verses that define the fraternal ties between Islam and the People of the Book. Something like that.
Doesn’t give up any territory, offers no strategic advantage. A gesture, nothing more. A gesture that recognizes that Israel has not lived up to expectations when it comes to treating all citizens equally, and is resolved to do better. A gesture that says that the nation of Israel is not simply a haven and a homeland for one specific religious community, but homeland to all her native children, and the proper home for those unfortunately displaced, before we knew better.
And in return she asks: nothing. It is a sacrifice for peace, nothing else. There is no hidden ambiguity, no trap door of phrasing the be re-interpreted as convenience dictates. Only a human gesture from an enemy to an enemy, in hope of changing that condition. A gesture of peace.
(I can’t believe nobody else ever thought of this, so I’m not claiming originality here, the thought is new to me, but that’s all I can attest to. However, since I didn’t know until just recently what a vicious bigot I was, you’d best check with Finn, see what I really think…)
Crazy idea? Yeah, probably, its mine after all. So far as I know, until we check with the expert. But who knows what can grow from a sincere gesture? Who knew a ping-pong team from China might have international peace repercussions, I mean, ping-pong?
Whats the downside? Unless it really is just about the members of one particular religious community, and a demand that a nation that tilts in favor of some of its citizens and against others is somehow legitimate, and should be embraced by the family of nations as just and worthy.
If tossing aside a bit of symbolism might further the prospect of peace, who would say no?
“One Look is Worth A Thousand Words.”
And by the way, of course the policy of deporting Gazans back to Gaza doesn’t help much and is short sighted. Israel should be trying to build up the West Bank, especially if it’s at Hamas’ detriment and Fatah (assuming they’re honest brokers for peace) are seen as a safe haven. Kicking out foreign activists I have no problem with, at all, and adding them in to claims of “ethnic cleansing” is despicably dishonest. As is claiming that taking illegal residents of the West Bank and putting them back in Gaza (while leaving the rest of the legal residents in place) .
Which is the point I’ve been getting at all through this thread (and, in fact, for years now). I’d love to have an honest discussion on population transfers within Palestinian territory, how best to achieve security and still set up a phased withdrawal that will see a sovereign Palestinian state, etc, etc, etc. It just becomes impossible if thee vast majority of my time has to be spend dealing with liars like Red Fury. Rather than dealing with a rational discussion of how Israel should conduct its Geneva Convention-authorized internment and relocation of Palestinians for security purposes, or even if the 4th GC should be amended, I’m stuck pointing out that yes, it’s a lie that there’s going to be “ethnic cleansing”. Yes, it’s a deceitful piece of rubbish to suggest that the dreaded “mass deportations” of Palestinians from the West Bank will be anywhere but to other Palestinian territory. It’s dishonest trash to suggest that a treaty which was explicitly canceled by Hamas when they came to power (and which was violated almost immediately by Arafat in any case) must now be cleaved to, even though it’s been rejected. It’s deceptive bullshit to claim that the 4th Geneva Convention, which explicitly authorizes the relocation and internment of protected persons if the security or military necessity of the occupying power justify it, really says that doing that is illegal.
That’s the point.
Just for one, an honest discussion would be good where a frank and fair exchange of ideas wasn’t more important than pointing out bullshit. And along the same lines, I will be very, very surprised if any of Red’s fellow travelers take him to task for his dishonesty. Just like only one has taken Ivan to task for his racism. And none have taken spoke to task for his relentless dishonesty and propensity to try to change the subject as soon as he’s caught out in a fiction.
This thread is a microcosm of the problem, right here. And people wonder why I’ve gotten frustrated with the same dozen or so schmucks after all these years. :smack:
I thought your point was that everyone is a lying liar, a racist lying stupid liar, who makes things up like cites to places that aren’t “devoted to monitoring and challenging perceived anti-Israeli news coverage.”
No one gives a shit who you’re frustrated with. I don’t know where you get this self-aggrandizing bullshit from. Every thread you participate in where someone disagrees with you becomes the FinnAgain&A&A&A&A show where you spam us all with your walls of text, thinking that we give a shit.
It’s even worse when sycophants come in and say “Oh, I like to read reasoned discussion”. That’s dumber than shit, because you are possibly the worst debater I have ever seen, and I am including Starving Artist, Curlcoat, Stoid, etc.
The best part is that your arch-nemesis, SmashTheState was actually intelligent and literate, no matter how weird some of his ideas are. You, by comparison, are the mental equivalent of a fundie quoting from his bible and repeating yourself until everyone else gets bored. And then you convince yourself that you won.
And people wonder why I think you’re a blundering tedious shithead, seeing you hijack and rape thread after thread after all these years. :smack:
BTW, anyone denying the fact that the Israel lobby groups exert an inordinate amount of power (vis-a-vis their numbers in the mainstream) with regards the whole American political system and especially its foreign policy, is either a fool or a lying cynic. And then there are also monkey’s flinging poo from their keyboards…
If the Cuban lobby – relatively minor by comparison – has been able to pressure countless Administrations into keeping the ultimately backfiring Cuban embargo in place, imagine the pressure the mislabeled “Israel Lobby” (with AIPAC, of course, at the forefront) is able to extend.
In fact, no need to imagine anything:
America’s Irrational Defense of Israel
Really? Who would have thunk?
Much more at source…
Ah, what a friend to Isreal you are Lucy, why don’t they just put some Koranic verses on their flag and forget all about this “Jewish homeland” nonsense with the Star of David. And you’re such a friend of Israel that you suggest that the mere existence of the Jewish state is somehow a form of racism that should not be tolerated by the international community. Just like you’re a friend to the Jews and not at all a racist when you say that it’s perfectly proper for us to contemplate the degree of traitorous dual loyalty among lAmerican Jews, based on religious or ethnic grounds.
Why, hunting for Traitor Jews who are traitors based on their religious or ethnic nature is no more racist than wondering if there aren’t some blacks who are watermellon thieves due to their ethnic background. I mean, you’re quite obviously not a racist if you worry about them potential watermelon-thieves, just like you’re not a racist if you worry about all them potential Traitor Jews who’d act just like communist spies did. And only a mind-reader would claim to know what you meant. Especially when you were reduced to prezeling yourself up so that you claimed that it was fine to suspect Jews of being traitors based on nothing but “religious or ethnic grounds” and then claimed that their Jewishness had nothing to do with it. Scout’s honor. We can trust someone like you.
*Speaking of how trustworthy you are, can you please point me to your retraction of your silly and ignorant claim that I was wrong about what the 4th Geneva Convention said? Your are trustworthy, right? *
So in other words, don’t give up any territory, just give up a massive swatch of territory to people, most of whom never owned the land they were living on in '48 in the first place and who are not Israeli citizens. So not territory, but land. Lots of land. But just don’t call it territory. And, ya know, don’t do anything other than a gesture.
Again, one can only be shocked and humbled at what a True Friend you are. After every peace offer and unilateral gesture, you ignore it, pretend it didn’t happen, and demand another. Truly, your friends should be careful to keep their hands on their wallets at all times.
Yes, who knows what could possibly happen from letting Hamas and Islamic Jihad move into Israel as long as they had a relative who once rented land there. It’s a mystery! Surely, though, this is in the name of Peace.
I take it that your friends also count their silverware when you leave?
Yeah, why should the Jewish state have the right to use the Jewish Star, that’s crazy. Much better to put Koranic verses up. You say this out of your deep well of Friendship. Well, they can put Koranic verses up as the flag and allowing millions of non-Israeli citizens to immigrate into the country onto land that most of them never owned.
Well, they can change the Jewish Star for Koranic verses (hopefully not the ones about how Jews are apes and pigs), and they can let in non-citizens who never owned land, and then there can be a civil war as groups like Hamas will then be based within Israel proper. But you’re a good friend, and this is a peace plan.
Do your friends also check to make sure you haven’t siphoned their gas tanks too, once you’re gone?
Man, screw you and your accusations of someone like me being a “sycophant”. I am interested in honest debate, I do think that the Israeli/Palestinian issue is VERY important and has not only regional but worldwide implications. You’re a fucker to say that someone like me that simply defends Finn’s right to post his position while I don’t actually take a side but express interest in, you know, actually READING what he’s saying is just…stupid. You are the one bringing absolutely nothing to the table other than accusations and your own rhetoric.
And good old Smashy was the anti-RandRover, and he was radical, ridiculous and far from a reasoned debater. For you to even hold him up as a shining example of how not to be like FinnAgain speaks VOLUMES.
I in no way suscribe to FinnAgain’s newsletter…but I’ll read it with an open mind, you disingenuous tool.
Who the fuck told FrothingFinn I’m discussing anything with him? 
I don’t engage batshit crazy posters afflicted with keyboard diarrhea. At most I poke them with a stick and keep a safe distance – I value my hygiene, both physical and mental.
TTFN