FinnAgain is kind of a shitty person.

Can you clarify this?
The Israeli supreme court has, IIRC, ruled that state owned land has to be able to be rented by Jews, Muslims, Christians, etc… equally. Disputes over water rights seem to generally be in the context of Israeli and Palestinian claims to water, not Jewish and Arab Israelis in conflict.

While differential funding is troubling, the existence of separate districts isn’t as much of a problem, as Arabs are allowed into the Hebrew schools and the existence of the Arabic schools as a separate track was due to the historical demands of the Arab population and is largely based on the distinctions in terms of what language classes are conducted with and what emphasis/point of view is placed on history. Even in neighborhoods where Jews and Arabs both live, very few Arab parents seem to want to send their children to the Hebrew-language schools.

There are of course other issues, such as the fact that enrollment is often predicated on the residential district that students are in, thereby limiting the ability of Arabs students to go to Hebrew-language schools unless they live in certain neighborhoods, but not all Arab and Jewish citizens go to different schools.

This is something I haven’t heard of either. There has always been a decidedly small portion of Arabs who volunteer for Israeli service, but I’m not aware of how Arab volunteers face near automatic rejection. Indeed,it’s not impossible for an Arab village to have a substantial portion of its population in the IDF and for its population to appreciate the advantages that serving in the military brings.

While I’m happy to have my ignorance fought, the cites I can find (mostly linked as sources on Wikipedia articles) match what Finn and Malthus have said above.

This was a pretty big deal when the court determined that the military service criterion used by Haifa University to allocate dorm assignments was discriminatory.

and

My emphasis. I can’t guess exactly how widespread of a problem the military service criterion is, but evidently it is problem enough that the court intervened.

David Shipler in his Pulitzer Prize Winning* Arab and Jew: Wounded Spirits in a Promised Land*, noted that the overwhelming majority of Arabs who apply for military service are rejected out of hand. He was The New York Times Jerusalem Bureau Chief in the late 70s and early 80s before being relieved by Tom Friedman.

Similarly, David Grossman, who is one of Israel’s most prominent journalists in* Sleeping on a Wire*, noted that the Arab citizens of Israel who apply for the IDF are almost always rejected as are those who apply to be members of the police forces in in Israel.

Obviously there is not any official policy excluding Israeli Arabs from military service, but that hardly means it doesn’t exist. You might as well try and argue that Christians in Egypt don’t face discrimination because there is little, if any, official discrimination against them. Admittedly that’s not the best example since Arab Christians in Egypt are far better integrated into Egyptian society than Israel’s Christian Arab population and are hardly leaving in the droves that Israel’s Christian Arabs are. In fairness to the Israelis, it should be noted that the Muslim rulers of the West Bank have hardly been terribly supportive of their Christian counterparts and Gaza’s rulers have been far worse than either.

Also, while I’d love it if Israeli Supreme Court ruling against discrimination meant it didn’t exist, let’s remember that Jim Crow and segregated schooling continued in the US for years after Brown V. Board of Education. The same is going to be true in Israel. That said, I wouldn’t compare Israel’s treatment of it’s Palestinian citizens to Jim Crow, but to the way blacks were treated in the North of the 1950s and early 1960s. As it is, things will probably get a bit worse for them for awhile since Israel has been turning quite right-wing for awhile, especially among younger Israeli Jews.

As for the schooling issue, I don’t see what’s subject to debate there. Israel has Arab-language schools for Arabs and Hebrew-language schools for Jews and the former don’t receive remotely the funding that the latter does.

None of this should be terribly surprising. The original Zionist settlers tried to pretend the Arabs of Palestine didn’t exist(everybody remembers the famous claim “a land without a people for a people without a land”) and modern-day Israelis generally try and pretend Israel’s Arab citizens don’t exist either and the idea that Israeli Arabs can be anything but second-class citizens in country which is officially “the Sovereign State of the Jewish People” is a fantasy.

Incidentally, since Damuri insists that he sees no difference between my views and those of Finn and has regularly labeled Finn an Israeli apologist, it’ll be amusing to watch him attempt to spin the above to be an example of Zionist propaganda.

Well, a few things.

  1. Your link doesn’t work for me and seems to go back to the Dope itself, but I know the case you’re talking about.
  2. However, it was a pretty bad ruling. There was discrimination going on, but it was against all non-veterans, who are not a protected class, and not Arabs. In point of fact, ultra-Orthodox Jews are also exempt from conscription and not many serve in the IDF, so they too would run afoul of preferential treatment for veterans.
  3. In point of fact, service is open to Arabs and exemption from service is not the same thing as a prohibition against volunteering. As cited, it’s quite possible for an entire Arab village to have its standard of living significantly boosted and their social fabric significantly effected by the number of their members who serve in the IDF.
  4. The verdict wasn’t that simple, nor was the legal history of the situation..
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](Court Allows Haifa University to Continue Contentious Dorm Policy - Haaretz Com)

IIRC legislation later changed the legal facts and Haifa U is still permitted to use veteran status as a valid metric. I could be wrong though.

The problem there is that, even if the books used valid statistical methodology and had accurate data sets, the books are decades out of date. It’s also not clear exactly what basis their claims would have, since the numbers of Arab volunteers to the IDF is measured in dozens for most years. And for the last several years, the reports have been thatthe number of Arab volunteers to the IDFhas been steadily increasing. It’s still counted in the hundreds rather than thousands or tens of thousands, and looking back at the 80’s or 90’s, without more detailed information (I can’t find the books online at the moment to comb through them), the percent of volunteers who were rejected, and why, may not be as telling as you are suggesting.

I’d also be interested to see current statistics on the number of Arabs who apply for and are turned down for jobs on the police force.

Well, there are numerous subjects for debate. For instance, the existence of the two separate school systems is largely due to historical precedent and the fact that many Arab Israelis do not want their children sent to Hebrew-language schools. There’s also the fact that there appear to be willful distinctions in the curriculum between the two, as polls have shown that upwards of 40% of Arab students believe that the Holocaust simply never happened.

So while a difference in funding is certainly not a good thing, it doesn’t tell the whole story. Nor does simply providing more funding for ‘separate but equal’ systems seem like the ideal answer. But many Arab parents do not want their children to go to integrated schools, even if that was floated as a solution.

They didn’t try to pretend that the Arabs didn’t exist. There was extensive discussion on how to deal with the Arab population, including but not limited to heated debates on a policy of transfer. Also, while everybody may remember “a land without a people for a people without a land”, it’s nowhere near that simple. In fact, it wasn’t even coined by Zionists.

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]("A Land without a People for a People without a Land" - Middle East Forum)

Come on, this is just silly. While there are certain tensions between the Jewish and Arab populations, they certainly don’t try to pretend they don’t exist.

It’s not. I’ve argued, and still maintain, that the only thing that’s required for Israel to remain the Jewish state is the Law of Return. I’ve supported, and continue to support, ARZA and their efforts to make sure that Israel is a pluralistic society. Israel can be a democratic state with equal protection for everybody under the law and a safe haven for Jews with the Law of Return guaranteeing that Israel will remain the only Jewish state on the planet. The concepts of democracy and a Jewish state are not mutually exclusive.