For Christians.....a devotional

Because I was waiting here, in the corner, to greet you.

Our Lord was asked that very question: “What is truth?”

He was asked by Pontius Pilate.

The Lord did not answer. John 18;37 and 38

We can only tell the truth that is in our hearts, my sister. We do not know the truth in any other matter.

I know only that the Lord Jesus, who is Christ, loves me, and I have faith that he loves you. And everything else is theology. Yes, He is truth. And if someone wants the truth, they should not try to get it from me, but rather, they should seek to know Him. And I must be very careful, when I speak of Him, and His will, because I am just another jerk on the internet, not the source of truth about the will of God.

Tris

You haven’t condemned any individual to hell by name, although your views about homosexuality as you have stated them have condemned homosexuals to hell, which could be seen as condemning specific people around here.

First off, let me give credit where it’s due. You have softened your voice and broadened your range recently, but you’re coming off a bad start. As I think you’ve gathered;), Jack Chick doesn’t have much credibility around here, and the force and the nastiness with which you originally stated your views put a lot of people off.

According to what you have said, only Christians are given salvation/allowed into heaven. Yet, time and time again, you’ve said you don’t think Catholics or Mormons are Christian, and you’ve wondered if people who are going to (presumably Protestant) churches are Christian. The devotional which started this whole mess, as you posted it, was even more full of the sort of condemnation which, I’m afraid, we’ve come to expect from you.

I know you’re trying. I know you’re doing God’s work the best way you know how to you, and you’re trying to do it in what is probably the toughest place on the Internet. I also realize that we’ve all got people who push our buttons. Lekatt pushes yours, as, I’m ashamed to admit, you push mine. We’ve tried to reach each other, to widen the common ground we share, but I worry that we’ve failed. Please believe me when I tell you there are a lot of people here who love you including me, even though we don’t always show it that well.

The problem is, we’ve also seen good people hurt and driven away from the church by people who present the Gospel the way you do. In my case, working with oddballs, outcasts, and eccentrics, I haven’t seen anyone drawn to the church by your style of presentation, but I’m working with a tiny percentage of the human race, and anything remotely conventional probably won’t work.

I can’t tell you how many times I vowed never to show sympathy and mercy again when I was younger, or how many times I prayed to God to unleash his wrath and judgement upon the sinners around me. They showed me no mercy; why should I show them any? The answer I got was that I was not to become like them, and that I was to show mercy. My current view is probably closer to the full text of the devotional you cited. I can see reasons for why they did what they did to me and, more importantly, my best friend. That does not mean that what they did was any less wrong. At the time, what I actually did was what any Christian is called to do (in my humble opinion, of course). I refused to give in to what was wrong and continued to stand for what I believed. At that time and place, what was wrong was yielding to a peer group who condemned and abused my friend because of her handicaps and what was right was standing by her and showing her sympathy and understanding because of the person she was.

A couple of nights ago, I was curled up in bed trying to sleep because I was afraid, alone, and in complete despair. A friend of mine called and we talked for about an hour and half. He told me about his crazy family, we talked books, and politics, and not only did he make me laugh, by the end of the conversation I was feeling much better and was out of the despair. This man is a homosexual and a Catholic, a member of two groups you have been less than kind to. He has also a very dear friend’s partner for over 7 years, and plans on being so for the rest of his life. One question which continues to trouble me, even though I usually ask it of you, is how can this person be inherently less moral, less of a good person, than someone like Fred Phelps, or even than someone like the fellow currently being Pitted who brags about beating his wife?

Look, I know I’ve been tough on you, and I may have crossed the line into cruelty. I do apologize. I think you know me well enough to know that, in my book, cruelty is one of the worst sins a person can commit. I get scared sometimes. As I said over in another thread, you’re talking to the person for whom there was no room at the lunch table. At my weaker moments, that makes me doubtful about there being room for me in heaven. When you start citing Scripture to show why large groups of people aren’t going there, I start to wonder how I got lucky enough to make the cut and I tend to assume I won’t. Sympathy and understanding are essential to my take on how we’re supposed to treat human beings; seeing a devotional in which the line “If we can help others by offering sympathy or understanding, we are a traitor to Christ.” stands on its own makes me wonder if I am being a traitor. Christ tells me I’m not. My poor, damaged brain, however, wonders. I try to live the ideal of “My utmost for His highest”, but being the contrary person I am, I no more grant Oswald Chambers infallibility than I do the Pope, or even Polycarp. :wink:

Anyway, since I haven’t said so yet, Merry Christmas! It’s a pleasure to celebrate with you the knowledge that God so loved us silly, contrary, incredibly fallible human beings that He took the trouble to find out what it was like to be one of first hand, not by being born into a rich or mighty family, or even one with a social claim to righteousness, but by being born into a pretty much ordinary, middle-class family. (I know carpenters were reasonably well off, but they certainly were neither notably rich nor notably poor.)

His4Ever, I hope you understand that my words today were not intended to hurt you. In fact, I don’t think they were ever intended to hurt you, although I admit you’ve driven me up a few walls. If I’m clumsier than usual this morning, I’m afraid I’ve gotten a #%&# head cold and it may have affected my brain. So, on to the next great theological question:

Did Christ ever get #%&# head colds, and, if so, what did He do about them? Since they’re pretty minor things, I don’t think he would have healed them automatically, and I won’t ask him to heal this one. Still, it’d be nice to think he had one so he knew what I’m going through firsthand. You know, I think I’m only half joking about this.

Anyway, Merry Christmas to all of you!
CJ

Jack Chick has no credibility anywhere. At least, not amongst thinking persons or actual Christians.

Sdrawkcab said:

Those are, of course, not quite the same statements. Unfortunately, Jack Chick does have credibility with some. I know it’s hard to believe, but it’s sadly true.

I’m afraid David is right. I know firsthand.

His4Ever, CJ speaks for me as well. With the exception that I’d have used “…the force and the apparent nastiness…” in the next-to-last line of her second paragraph. We know your understanding of God is not so much a loving Father who is ready to forgive as He is a strict disciplinarian who shows His love through sternness (and I cannot help but wander what your own earthly father was like; many people “create God (i.e., their understanding of Him) in the image of their father” – which is why it took me so long to grasp His unconditional love and respond to it, since my father was a stern man who seldom showed any positive emotion).

It’s really easy to misjudge people when all you know of them is their words on a message board – I am publicly repenting of a case where I continually misjudged (and should not have judged in the first place! :() two members who appeared to me to be speaking in judgmental and hate-filled terms when they were actually warm and caring human beings who were standing firm for what they believed.

As Christians, we are called to stand firm for our God, even unto martyrdom if necessary, but also to take a stance that returns kindness for hatred, mercy for judgment, love for condemnation. How many times did Jesus say, “You have heard it taught… but I say unto you…” where the O.T. teaching he was discussing allowed revenge or “getting even” and His command was to give back kindness even to those who persecuted you.

We disagree on a lot of issues, and at rock bottom I think they’re moral ones – you see the essence of morality in trying to live by the Law and demanding that of others as their bounden duty to God; I see it in the terms Christ taught of extending mercy and dealing with people “where they are,” judging only in an effort to help them along to a better, more fulfilling life – and always with a realization that the shoes that fit me are not the same ones that fit them, and it may be deucedly uncomfortable to try to walk in theirs, but I cannot know what they feel unless I try.

May God’s peace be with you, and may you see your way clear to show it to others here. :slight_smile:

Well, you know I’m not sure if Christ got colds or not seeing as the region he was in was probably fairly warm most of the time. I’m not sure of the temperature over there. :wink:

Seriously, though, I just wanted you to know that I’m trying to walk a fine line here. As an imperfect sinner saved by grace through Christ, I desire to share God’s love and mercy and at the same time not compromise what I perceive to be the truth from my reading of the Scriptures. Sometimes maybe I speak when I shouldn’t and don’t speak when I should. When I see others, such as Lekatt teaching what I believe to be error, it’s very frustrating and hard not to step in and say something. Does that make any sense?

I feel before God that I must stand on what I know/believe to be the truth even if it isn’t popular. And I don’t even agree with some of the other Christians here on certain issues but we already know that so no sense in dwelling on it right now. As I’ve said before, I believe loving people includes telling them the truth even if they don’t like that truth. However, I’m sure I need to find a way to improve how I present what I believe to be true and once I’ve shared that truth, I should leave it with God because I’ve done what I should. I’m not perfect. I just don’t want to compromise truth or water it down so as to make it acceptable to others because then it’ll be unacceptable to God. Even if you don’t agree, am I making any sense?

I suppose in lekatt’s instance, you’ve made your point over and over again.

BTW, watch out. When you hit your 666 post, you know what happens…

Let me see if I can explain something a little bit. I’ll try anyway. I don’t look at us as still being under the law. We’re under grace, BUT I don’t see anything in the New Testament that teaches this to mean we’re free to just live any old way we please and committ deliberate defiance of what God says is wrong on an ongoing lifetime basis.

In other words, being saved by grace through Christ isn’t a license for us to sin. Am I making sense at all? Sure Christians aren’t perfect, only God is. But we’re striving to be what He wants. We may fall once in awhile, repent, ask forgiveness and go on. As I’ve tried to explain before this is entirely different than an unsaved person who lives a continual life of sin, with it never bothering that person at all. When I do wrong, I defnitely feel and sense it because the Holy Spirit in me is grieved.

Anyway, I didn’t mean to get into a long diatribe. Just wanted to try and clarify something. You don’t have to agree with it.

Well, I agree.
We are definitely not under the law, but grace.
If a religion says there are certain Rules ro follow, watch out!
Its not from God.

Well, His4ever never listens to me, but what the hey… Would one of the people she responds to do me the kindness of bringing this to her attention? Thank you.

You’re wrong, plain and simple, my dear.

You keep wanting to separate yourself from other sinners like the Pharisee wanted to separate himself from the tax collector.

The Pharisee obeyed all the commandments and lived an exemplary life like you, even claiming, like you, that his sins were minimal — few and far between.

The tax collector, on the other hand, lowered his head, feeling that he was so filthy that he wasn’t even worthy to say a prayer.

Jesus said that it was the tax collector, and not the Pharisee, who was righteous before God.

Here are his words from Luke8:9-14:

To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men — robbers, evildoers, adulterers — or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

"But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

“I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

Do you disagree with Jesus?

Just to clarify, Libertarian, I’m not confident in my own righteousness at all because all our righteousness are as filthy rags in His sight. I’m confident in Christ’s righteousness which is attributed to me through my acceptance of Him as Saviour.

Also, I don’t disagree with Jesus. But I may disagree with your interpetations of what He’s said. See above post concerning righteousness.

Why can’t we edit our posts?

Did you not say that you fall only “once in a while”? And that that sets you apart from people who live “a continual life of sin”? (Yes, you did! ;))

How is that different from the Pharisee’s prayer?

If I can think of a clearer better way to explain, I will. I thought my other post spoke for itsef. I don’t consider myself to be a Pharisee although you might think so. The Pharisees had confidence in their own righteousness before God, I don’t have that same confidence. I don’t know a clearer way to say it. Maybe someone else can explain it better.

In all honesty, my dear, I love you in Christ. But I will ask you to consider something. If you cannot explain such a simple thing, do you really think you should be explaining scripture to people who are lost and need to be found? Maybe there is a better way for you to live your ministry for Christ.

I think her point is that *it cannot get anymore clearer than what is written. * Does that make sense?

I suppose.

But it is clearly written that the Pharisee believed that he was separate from the tax collector by virtue of the fact that he sinned very little while the tax collector was like the adulterers, robbers, and evildoers who sin continually.

And yet, Jesus declared that the tax collector, and not the Pharisee, was justified before God.

I don’t know what could be more clear.

Come on Lib, you can do it…One more post and 10,000 :wink:

She most certainly has not condemned anybody, and I wish people would quit making that accusation. The bible speaks of condemnation along with mercy, and Jesus himself said “whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.” If you have a problem with that statement, then your problem is not with His4ever or me or anybody else - it’s with the one who said it. So I submit that you might want to go to the source: try chastising Jesus for his condemnatory attitude and see how far you get. And you really need to get off of His4ever’s back about it. She accepts the bible as the final authority, and the bible attributes the above quote to Jesus.

There is, as you fail to acknowledge, a difference between holding the belief that those who refuse to accept Christ will go to hell and condemning a person to hell. His4ever and I have both said that we believe refusing to accept Christ (refusal, not ignorance) leads to condemnation. This is backed up by Jesus’s own words. If, then, a person stands up and says “I don’t accept Jesus; does that mean I’m going to hell?” then His4ever is not doing the condemning, the person is condemning himself by his own words. And (once again), “This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.”

Please, let’s not start this “what we’ve come to expect from you” business. I agree that her tone is not always appropriate, but then neither is mine, nor yours, nor Polycarp’s.

Well, as much as I hate to say this, you need to quit bringing up the Fred Phelps strawman. Nobody here endorses or even remotely resembles him or his hateful misrepresentation of God. He is only an easy tool for painting the Christians you (not you personally) don’t like with a guilt-by-association negative brush.

And regarding your friend: As I’ve said before, it’s not my place to judge one’s salvation. But according to the bible, those who practice sexual immorality will not enter the kingdom. It has nothing to do with being a good person or being moral. It’s all about love (for God first, then for your neighbor - and that means Agapao, not Eros) and obedience (“whoever loves me keeps my commandments”).

There were four pieces of the Jewish law that Christians are commanded to obey, above and beyond loving your fellow man:
[ul][li]Don’t eat meat from strangled animals.[/li][li]Don’t eat blood.[/li][li]Don’t eat meat sacrificed to idols.[/li][li]Don’t practice sexual immorality.[/ul][/li]
If a person’s personal desires are more important to him than God’s commands, then there’s a problem.