Yes, I don’t know how I could say it clearer. I’m really trying to point out the difference in a person who knows the Lord and how he or she strives to live and one who doesn’t know Him and how they live; not the difference between two Christians, one thinking they’re better than the other.
[hijack started]
Well, I found out firsthand they certainly have the things in Hawaii, so I’d guess they have them in the Holy Land. I still remember my brother’s astonishment at finding out I’d caught a cold while I was living in Hawaii. I’m sure God created the cold virus and mosquitos for a reason. I’d just like to find out what! 
Oh well. I’ll take it up with Him at the proper time, I suppose, along with a bunch of other stuff. I suspect I’ll be just as ornery in heaven, if I’m lucky enough to make it there.
[/hijack]
CJ
When you tire of the uncertainty, the doubting, the anxiety, when you want to find the peace that is beyond, the knowing. Look not within the pages of a book, but within yourself. There you will find the living, loving God, He lives within you closer than your breath.
Love
Leroy
I always get the feeling when reading these kinds of threads that people who lean more towards the fundamentalist brand of Christianity (or other religions) think disbleief is a “choice”. I can no more WILL myself to believe in the existence of God than H4E could will herself to believe in Allah or Vishnu.
I could - as I see so many Christians do - live according to the scriptures as some kind of “insurance policy”, but the one think on which liberal and fundamentalist Christians alike seem to agree is that salvation depends on not just on “going through the motions” of Christianity, but on actually BELIEVING that there is a God, that Christ was is son, and that the Bible is the word of God.
Is there really ANY point to people such as myself - who emphatically believe that there ISN’T a God - following the laws laid down in the Bible, the Qu’ran, the Talmud, the Book of Mormon, or whatever sacred text you wish to name just in case we are wrong? Isn’t it better that we simply try to live our lives with compassion, tolerance, and understanding than that we use a faith which has great meaning to you as some kind of “escape clause”? Do you really want your faith trivialised like that?
I started to respond to His4ever’s post, and then thought better of it. What’s the point in dipping a bucket continually into a dry well?
You are a beautiful man, Leroy. Yours are the words of God. I’m glad you were here to assuage my anger. God go with you always.
His4ever, thank you for the kinder tone in your words.
One thing that I have found helpful in speaking with others about our faith is to use the words, “I believe…” or “My interpretation of God’s Word is…” Saying those words doesn’t change the meaning of the heart of what I am saying. But it does encourage others to be a little more open to my words.
I believe that the words Judge not that ye be not judged mean that we are relieved from the burden of telling others that they are wrong. What is your belief or interpretation of those words?
There are Christians who believe that no one will be condemned. I am one of them. I also don’t believe that the Bible is infallible.
But I do believe that if I had been the only person in the world besides Jesus, he still would have given his life for me. He loves all of us that much!
His4Ever, I ask your forgiveness for any harshness that I have shown to you.
Your comment “Sometimes maybe I speak when I shouldn’t and don’t speak when I should” reminds me of St. Paul – and of me!
Thank you very much for your kind words. I always have a great appreciation of them.
I wanted to add that since my NDE (15 years) in all my reading and research I have never read where a person temporarily died and found themselves in the presence of a God that was displeased with them. They felt only His perfect Love.
Love
Leroy
Which might only prove that when one’s brain isn’t getting enough oxygen, one tends to have happy thoughts.
Interestingly, there was a book published a few years ago which reviewed NDEs - the subjective experiences of those who reported NDEs were by no means universally positive, somewere downright terrifying. I can’t remember the name of the book or the author, but I’m pretty sure I’d recognise the book title if I saw it, so I’ll go hit google.
Czarcasm, I’m not interested in starting an argument here, but I’m sincerely interested in your views on a question that your post brought back to my mind (after having thought about it a year or two ago when we were debating extensively):
Do you hold that because one can come up with a “naturalistic” explanation for a supposed spiritual phenomenon, that explanation must be the valid one? This seems to fall short on the basis of scientific method even though it does fit Occam’s Razor, and short of accepting “spiritual” explanations for the phenomenon I don’t see an alternative open to you. I hope you can see what I’m getting at: On the basis that it is not a regularly observed thing that people rise from the dead, and in fact no scientifically verified case has been described, if someone explains Jesus’s Resurrection as a misprision of his disciples talking about his prediction that he would rise on the third day, that must be the logical explanation of the story according to non-theist views. However, in other cases where someone advances an explanation for an observed phenomenon that is not tied to religious or spiritistic doctrine, the tendency is to test a hypothesis and to not claim it as valid until proven. I see a bit of a contradiction in the apparent stance, and would very much like to get a better grasp on how you see things – because I’m not interested in accusing you or any other rationalist of being inconsistent in this regard, so I figure that I must be misinterpreting how you have explained your comments on this sort of situation. Your oxygen-starvation comment here provoked me to recall that, and I’d be honored to get a clarification of what truth value you place on such proposed explanations.
I am not picking on YOU in particular, Lib…
But I detect in His4ever’s recent posts a new and more loving Christian woman. I’d appreciate it if everyone gave her the time to show that she might have a new understanding of the Scripture without making her feel like she can never change her image on this board. She HAS changed her image for me, and I think it is legitimate.
Thank you.
Poly, I composed quite a long response to the question you posed to Czarcasm and then I thought about the wisdom of hijacking this thread in order to discuss a topic which really deserves its own thread. So if you’d like to start a thread either here or at the PP asking the same question, it’s a discussion in which this rationalist would be more than happy to participate.
Oh, where to start? The blind devotion. The acceptance without question. The twisted message of “hate but love.” The condemnation. The contradictions. The lies.
I’ve looked at Christianity - I was even raised Christian. But it’s not for me. And the more I read sad threads like this one, the more that is affirmed for me. And I like being affirmed. 
Esprix
Then how do you explain the things that are contradictory in the Bible? Sometimes the things that are written are anything but “clear” - what then?
If the Bible is the Truth, then the Truth needs some serious editing.
Esprix
Oh, thank goodness! Since my sexuality is perfectly moral, and the way I engage in sex with other people is perfectly moral, then I don’t have anything to worry about - whew!
And here I was worried! Gawrsh!
Esprix
[quoteThe blind devotion. The acceptance without question. The twisted message of “hate but love.” The condemnation. The contradictions. The lies.[/quote]
Interesting response. Do you see all Christians as having those characteristics? Do those characteristics also appear in non-Christians?
No challenge to your thinking is intended.
You’re welcome. And when I hear her say what the tax collector said, instead of what the Pharisee said, then she will have changed her image for me as well.
Joe_Cool, I nearly didn’t post yesterday because I was afraid of what your response to be, and I’m acutely aware that I may come to regret this post. Still, I am compelled to try.
What I said yesterday was not meant as an attack on your faith, His4Ever’s faith, or the faith of anyone else on this board, lurker or poster. It was the exact opposite – an attempt to reach out to His4Ever and bridge the differences between us. I have made mistakes. I acknowledge that and I apologize again for the harm my mistakes have done. I haven’t been deliberately cruel, but being a mortal, sinful, way too fallible human being, I realize I may have been inadvertantly cruel.
I don’t know how to talk to you. I’m afraid to e-mail you one-on-one for fear you’ll attack me, even though you may not see your words as an attack. I know you and I will never agree on homosexuality/sexual immorality in any way which makes sense to us, although I wonder if we aren’t in agreement on some deeper level. If I say that I feel like you’ve attacked me twice in this thread, will you pay any heed to that, or will you dismiss it as wishy-washy New Age thinking?
Believe me, Joe, I’m not wishy-washy. My faith led me to spend 11 years of my life standing up for a friend who got picked on because she was handicapped. More recently, it has led me to deliver school supplies to a somewhat dangerous neighborhood, and to stand up to a man on the bus who was making fun of a retarded man. Keep in mind, I’m female, short, and in my 30’s. In other words, I’m not sure I’m as good in a fight as I’d like to think I am.
I’m also not as sure in my faith as I like to project, at least not with some other factors in my life. I cannot become what I get the impression you would like me to be. I’m sorry. Sympathy and understanding saved my life and my faith 20 years ago. Can I renounce them? You want me to acknowledge my sins? That might set a record for longest single post on this board. Do you want me to renounce those who’ve shown me kindness and compassion? I’m sorry. I can’t do that, any more than I could renounce my friend 20 years ago. Twice in my life, Christ’s mercy has saved me. How can I renounce, ignore, or even cease to mention that. Yes, I’ll be judged, and I accept the consequences of my actions.
I wasn’t speaking to you yesterday, but I am now. What do you want me to do? I will consider it, and, if it is within my power, I may try to do it. Please understand that I can no more take you as absolute authority than I can the Pope. I must do what I believe God commands me to do. I must witness as I believe God commands me to witness. If I make a hash of it sometimes, I’m human, but I continue to try, perhaps because I don’t know how to do anything else.
Regretfully,
CJ
Well, let’s see what I can come up with. I’m at work so am time limited. People use that Scripture a lot, it seems to me anyway, to justify continuing sinful behavior. This is just my take on it. I don’t think the verses mean that we’re not to say anything about immoral behavior but I do think they mean we’re not to judge the person themselves. That make sense?
One reason I say that is that there are Scriptures (no time to look them up at present) that tell us (I’m speaking of Christians) that if a person claims to be a brother (fellow Christian), and yet is living in sinful bahavior (adultery, theievery, Xiality, etc.) then we’re not supposed to fellowship with them. If you want the reference I can get it for you when I have more time. So, in this way aren’t we judging? But it’s the behavior that’s being judged. Now it doesn’t say that we’re not to be around people who do these things who make no claim to being Christians, cos how could we ever tell people about Christ if we were never around them?
Of course, the purpose of the disfellowshipping I believe is to bring them to repentance. That’s my understanding anyway.
Also, I personally think that if God says somethings wrong in His word, then certainly we have the responsibility to be able to point that out. This is all just me talking and I don’t know if I’m explaining it well or not.
Polycarp, my “oxygen starvation” comment may have been short and sweet, but it was anything but a drive-by(though I fully realize you weren’t accusing me of doing such a thing.) What I did was apply the experiences of the typical NDE and compare them to the experiences of some who have passed out from a lack of oxygen to the brain.
Tunnel vision? Check.
Bright light at the end of the tunnel? Check.
Feeling of euphoria? Check.
Dreamlike state? Check.
Since the two compare so favorably, I see no reason at all for the claim of otherworldly experience unless some confirmable proof for such is presented. The mere fact that a lot of people have the same kind of experience is only evidence of one thing-we all have human brains that operate pretty much the same way.
Scientific evidence-tons of it.
Spiritualistic evidence-none.
Why should the scientific evidence be thrown out the window in favor of the spiritualistic non evidence?
I will always follow the path of least resistance when it comes to any idea, while always keeping my mind open to receive new evidence. What I will not do is toss out or ignore evidence in order to give someone’s unsubstanciated idea a shot.