How does it justify continuing sinful behavior? I think it means that we all fall short in the presence of the Lord. If people are Christian, then they should know what is and is not a sin. This being the case, why do you think any of us have a better handle on what “being a Christian” means? The only person I think was qualified to judge his fellow man, was Jesus, because he had a line straight to God (or was God, either way, same thing).
And if they decidedly aren’t fellow Christians? Do you (not specifically you) still tell them they are a sinner? Why look at their sins instead of your own? As I said, if someone is a “Christian” then they should know what a sin is. That being the case, why do you need to tell them they are sinning? You can say that “the behavior is being judged” but that doesn’t hold much water. What if I said your Christianity is a farce, don’t worry, it’s just your behavior. Telling people about Christ is one thing, but condemning them is another. Think of it this way; If a Pagan came up to you and said “you are sinning in Zeus’s eyes, for worshipping another God”, what would you think of them? Would you think they are nuts?
Don’t you think it’s better to tell the person about Jesus, than it is to tell them about Hell? Do you think that fear is more powerful than love? I know that you believe in your heart that you are doing the correct thing, but do you ever question whether or not you are doing the right thing?
It’s been almost 30 years since Psychiatrist Dr. Raymond Moody showed that blood oxygen had nothing to do with NDEs. He also proved false many of the other myths surrounding the experiences.
You are correct. A small percentage of NDEs are negative. They usually begin with the experiencer in a cold, dark place, sometimes with monsters. I am talking about those NDEs which began in the presence of God. In all of those that begin in the presence of God. God is loving, compassionate and accepting, even if He tells them they must return and finish their life, which is common also.
If the mind, spirit, consciousness, etc., were a function of the brain then somewhere in the brain biological memory would have to be stored. We can see physical things like biological memory.
There has never been any proof that memory exists in the brain, no one has been able to point out the memory and describe what it looks like. There is no scientific evidence that consciousness is biological no matter how many scientists may believe that it is.
On the other hand, NDEs such as Pam Reynolds’, provide us with strong evidence that consciousness continues to live after the death of the body. See my other post for URLs.
Oh please Libertarian stop with the Pharisee remarks. I’ve never considered myself to be a Pharisee and I ask God many times to be merciful to this sinner. I just think our wires are crossed and you don’t understand the things I try to get accross. Read Joe_Cool’s earlier post concering me.
I think you’re out of line calling me a Pharisee, but hey you’re entitled to your opinion as we all are.
The problem is that you are not presenting Christ to people to accept or reject. You’re presenting yourself.
When Christ walked into Levi’s house, He was gracious and loving and condemned no one in the room. He sat among them and ate and drank and told stories. This is not the man Whom you present to people. You present a man who refused even to go into the house.
When Christ was called upon to condemn an adulteress, He refused, reminding people that none of them was without sin. And He sent the adultress on her way, telling her to sin no more. This is not the man Whom you present to people. You present a man who picked up a stone and threw it at her.
Whenever Christ came upon sick people, he healed them. Whenever He came upon hungry people, he fed them. And when He came upon people who were poor in spirit, He told them that theirs is the Kingdom of God.
But you present to men a Jesus who has no compassion for their spiritual poverty, who has already condemned them to hell, and who yields his own authority to a book.
Jesus said that ALL authority on heaven and earth are given to HIM, not to the Bible. Is it any wonder that tax collectors and prostitutes will enter the Kingdom of God before you?
“And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him.” (1 John 4:16)
Love is all that is required. And for those who do not love, they do not know God, and therefore they cannot present God’s Word to people. All they can present is lies.
“Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.” (1 John 4:8)
If you think that believing in the monster that you present is the road to salvation, then you are sadly mistaken. You do not present Jesus to people; you present the devil.
You chase people away from God’s Kingdom. You close the door of heaven to others, and you refuse to go in yourself. You thank God that you aren’t like the evil-doers.
You separate yourself from others by measuring your sins against theirs. And when you find that they come up short, you call upon Bible verses like Satan in the desert to mark them as condemned.
God does not need your assistance in winnowing out the sinners from the saints. He gave you one simple commandment, that you love others as you love yourself.
You do not hear me because you do not hear God. You hear only your own conscience, and it soothes you by telling you that you’re not as bad as all those icky people. It tells you that you’re different because at least you try. You judge yourself by your intentions, yet you judge others by their behavior.
Wake up! Repent of your arrogance! Stop trying to trap Jesus Christ into your little box. He is the Word of God. Stop placing burdens upon the shoulders of others that you are unwilling and unable to bear yourself. Stop learning from men who do not love, and start learning from the Holy Spirit.
I know that you will ignore these words. You have to because you cannot bring yourself to be humbled enough to hear them. I know that someone will come to your defense, and that you will interpret that as a vindication. And I know that you will say that these are judgmental words. But these are words of warning.
The day will come when you will watch those you have condemned with your Bible verses walk into heaven before you. You will call upon the Lord and He will say, “Who are you? I don’t recognize you.”
That’s because you stand outside of Levi’s house thumping your Bible, and pointing out how everyone in the house is a sinner.
You’d better get on inside that house, Sister, because that’s where Jesus is.
His4ever And when the Lord asks you “Where are the lambs of Mine, who came to you to learn of My love?” what will you tell Him?
“Oh, they just didn’t understand me.”
The chance you are taking is that you might bring despair to the soul of someone beloved of the Lord, and because of you, they might stop seeking Him. If you stop your condemnations, the chance you are taking is that some of these, who you consider sinners, will continue to sin, and they shall have to rely on the Lord’s mercy.
I have no fear that His mercy will reach every soul that seeks Him. I fear to be one who has led one of His children astray. Learn how not to sin, teach how to love. Both take place in the heart, not the head.
If we can keep personalities out of it, I’d very much like to see what people – regular participants in this thread who have taken sides and also lurkers and other readers who have not jumped in on one side or the other, have to say about the “styles” of spreading the message that are being advocated, on the one side by His and to a lesser extent by Joe, and on the other by CJ, Lib, Tris, and myself. In your minds, what is right, what wrong, what effective or ineffective, about the points being made?
It seems to me that at rock bottom there seems to be a difference in our perceptions of God’s nature – whether He is merciful and loving on the one hand, or a stern disciplinarian whose love is shown through His insistence on departing from sin on the other. And I realize that that quick generalization is inadequate to catch the nuances of either party’s concept, but let it stand as a loose summary for now.
I’m firmly convinced of the integrity and good intentions of both sides in this dispute, that they are doing what they feel God is calling them to do in taking the stances they are. And thus we are standing at something of an impasse. I’m asking for distancing, omission of personalities, and dispassionate analysis of how the varying positions work in practice, in order that we may find our way past the impasse.
Czarcasm, thanks for the carefully explained response. I have too much respect for your thinking to have assumed that you were grasping at straws to preserve a materialism, but honestly perceived that any explanation that failed to invoke “the supernatural” was adequate in your view to “explain away” supposed miracles and such. Your explanation, which I understand as “least hypothesis” based tentative acceptance of what illuminates and deals with the observed phenomena, satisfies my rationalistic streak, and I’m grateful for your clarifying it. Lekatt, I’d suggest that the explanation-of-NDEs issue may demand a new thread, since there are evidently non-faith-based issues that deserve analysis and possible debate in what you and Czarcasm have said. Reprise, I have no problem with a new thread if you feel that more need be said than what Czarcasm commented, but I’ll leave it to your discretion whether one ought to be started.
I think your method, as well as CJ, Lib, and Tris, is the better method. When I first started reading/lurking on the StraightDope, I was wrestling with a lot of faith-related questions. I’ve heard, for a long time, people who act like His4ever, JerseyDiamond, and Joe and I was dissatisfied by the answers to be had from people who present Christ as they have/are.
As I said when I first started reading, one of the reason’s I kept reading was because of you PolyCarp, and also, I wouldn’t want to forget about Lib (at the time I didn’t see many Tris or CJ threads) and I remember thinking that my religious inclinations were along similar lines, at least similar core beliefs as Poly, and Lib. I can not express how much of a relief it was. Also, I was, and am, still impressed by the manner in which you argue, which I find much better than the “your damned because the bible says”. Treating people as individuals goes a long way in my book.
So in answer to your question Poly, I believe your “style” is better. Your “style” actually strengthed my faith in God and Jesus BTW.
Thank you for the endorsement, Meatros; sometimes I question how effective I’m being in my witness, and hearing things like that really helps! I think it’s only fair to say that "which I find much better than the “you’re damned because the bible says” is a major misrepresentation of what Joe and Jersey have had to say – though I’m confident that that’s what someone skimming their posts would get out of them (one reason I object to that style of witness in this time and place, no matter how well-founded in Scripture the witnesser may feel his or her stance to be).
Actually, thank you! Take it from me, you are being effective.
You know, one thread that you responded to recently has actually really stuck in my head. I don’t remember exactly what the OP was about, but I do remember your response, which was “My God is not a liar” or something to that effect. I think it was a thread about creationism, but I can’t remember. That response, to me, is a keeper and solid.
You are right, I lumped them all together when I shouldn’t have. I haven’t actually read as much from Joe than I have from His4Ever and JerseyDiamond. My objections to Jersey are more from her, IMHO, extreme literal-ness of the Bible, as opposed to her “damning people”. I know that His4Ever has good intentions, however they may appear to other people, but her style is off-putting.
In a further effort at achieving peace, I want to report something:
I started a thread over in the Pizza Parlor’s Kitchen on witnessing styles, in an effort to get further feedback from some other people, including evangelical Christians, that I respect. My good friend Jon the Navigator, who posts here on occasion, responded in part with a Scripture quote that really hit home to me:
Polycarp, this lurker is not going to offer much of an opinion at this time; I just wanted to affirm that I am reading every post in this thread with great interest, as I do with most of the Christian threads.
I wanted to post to repeat a quote of St. Francis that you taught me: “Proclaim the Gospel at all times. When necessary, use words.”
There is more to the Gospel than quoting Scripture. There is living the Gospel in one’s own life, in a way that everyone can see God’s love. I believe this Gospel is actually more important than the one written down in Scripture. “By their fruits you will know them.” Not by the passages they quote - by the way they live their lives, and how clearly God’s Love shines through the human covering.
When people are full of love, it shows. And when they’re not, that shows too. By these words I would condemn myself before condemning anyone else. I do not have enough love - but I see acquiring Love as a more important goal than achieving perfect adherence to Scripture - and FAR more important a goal than seeking to get everyone ELSE to adhere to Scripture.
That is all. Sincere thanks to all in this thread for my edification.
It’s not a game where we’re supposed to trap flies. You’d prefer that she be deceptive and tell only the happy parts? You’re right…it would be much better if we hid all the unpopular parts of our faith…that way it would be easier to trick people into “joining up.” :rolleyes:
Read what you quoted. If God calls somebody, do you really think His4ever is powerful enough to drive them away?
