No, actually I should choose my words a bit more carefully – what I meant to say was that Christ should be a superior example even to the finest of loving Christians on this board. I often find that hard to imagine myself, but it’s a great thing to imagine being in the presence of Christ.
OK, so talking about Christianity in a Christianity thread is bad, but interjecting “Christian morals” in any other thread is good. Gotcha. ( :rolleyes: )
Well, since you misquoted me, I’ll add in what you forgot to include:
That would denote sarcasm, you see, because I acknowledge and expect people to respond to threads posted on a public message board, whereas you seem to think it ill-mannered to do so. Or is it only ones in which you have a vested interest? (And believe me, I share your vested interest in Christianity, if for different reasons.) Yes, that is awfully ill-mannered, isn’t it?
And, again, for emphasis: :rolleyes:
Oh, and may I ask, what “benefits” would I gain by whatever it was you were saying? Your sentence didn’t parse particularly well.
Esprix
I would never presume to speak for Esprix - I think he’s pretty good at defending himself - but in this thread you have been asked very genuine questions by people who don’t seek to make judgements of your faith but wish to understand why you beliebe what you believe.
In future, I’ll ask my questions about faith at the Pizza Parlor - I’ll get honest answers there as opposed to the point scoring which has happened in this thread.
If you point scoring narcissists are the best example of your individual religions, then God needs better spin doctors.
His4ever, if I say to you “you are judgmental” then I am being judgmental about you and stand a good change of being wrong in my judgment.
If I say that you come across to me as judgmental, that is just an observation about what I think and feel.
But, anyway, I see some of that beginning to fall away, I think. You don’t sound as angry to me.
Tris, I believe that greed is considered to be one of the Seven Deadly Sins. We are told to sell our goods to feed the poor and we are told not to store up treasurers on us. I agree with you.
If you look at that statement without a name attached to it, you can’t tell whether the person is a fundamentalist or a liberal!
DiamondJersey, I think that many of us feel exactly that way but from the other end of the spectrum. I, too, stand firm in what I believe and I am not about to change it because someone thinks it’s immoral. See how it cuts both ways?
The posts were sad reading tonight.
May I ask this: Do any of you think or believe that you do not continue to commit sins in your life on a daily basis? (Anger, hurtful words, lack of love, inability to listen, greed, ingratitude, judgment – you name it!)
I am sinful every day of my life. I am a human being and I mess up. I wish that I didn’t, but I’m not perfect. I breath a quick prayer, forgive myself and move on. **The burden is gone but others may not be in a position to know that. ** That’s why I think that it is unloving and unChrist-like to point a finger or throw a stone.
Yet, I do it anyway.
Pax
Jersey Diamond, toward the end of that incredibly long post, I said that I do point out people’s sins and wrote how I deal with it. I even gave a concrete example, albeit of correcting what may be more of a secular sin. I also wrote of occaisions when I’ve stood up to sin in a public place. I spent 11 years saying, in effect, “No. You cannot pick on my friend. It is wrong!” At some point as I grew, I also became convinced it was un-Christian.
Look, a decade ago, while hospitalized for depression myself, one of my fellow patients was a young woman who was had been brought in after she’d gotten in her car intending to kill herself. That she wound up at the civilian facility I was in rather than the local military hospital alone was somewhere between extraordinary and miraculous. Among other things, she was in danger of losing her faith, despite having been a devout Christian and, I think(?) a bit of a Fundamentalist to that point. “Why doesn’t God do miracles any more?”, she wailed to me. Tell me, should I have spoken to her of God’s judgement or His love at that point? I know what choice I made, and I like to think I strengthened her faith.
I ask God for words at times, especially at critical moments, and quite often while posting here, in GD more than anywhere. I trust Him to give me the appropriate words. Is there a chance those words are coming from the Devil? Yes. I won’t deny it. I do not know! I do know what God has taught me through the Bible, through my church, and through my life. I have felt the touch of evil, and I have seen what it does. I have watched so-called Christians destroy, although I admit they were teenagers.
Don’t you understand, I am the biggest sinner of all! (If that’s not bragging.) I was told I was not fit to associate with decent people and so help me, I believed it, and there is still a faint trace of that belief within my heart. I am certainly not fit to associate with the Creator of All Things, Ruler of the Universe, and Judge of All Judges. And yet, when I had failed my best friend back in high school, and again when I thought I had lost home and life and mind a decade ago, He saw fit to associate with me. At that thought, my head bows and, even though I’m already sitting, my knees bend. I failed my best friend. The reason I wrote “11” years rather than “12” or “13” is because she had a nervous breakdown between our sophomore and juniour years. At the time, I believed I had failed my best friend. God did not fail me. I don’t know why. All I can guess is that maybe it was so I can reach those who believe themselves unreachable and show them the light which has shone on even in the blackest of my darkness.
As I said, we appear to be called to different flocks. Let me get my sheep down from that cliff and on to level ground. Then we’ll work at making sure they don’t go astray again.
CJ
Upside down, hanging by a hoof, and too scared to baa!
I just wanted to come back and make one thing clear. The people I appear to be called to minister to are a tiny fraction of the population as a whole. Taking a pure guess, I’d say they make up less than 1%. Nevertheless, I cannot believe that God would want even this small remnant to be lost. If He does, then I’m in deep trouble, and please count me as working for the opposition, because I’m one of them!
CJ
Good point, CJ. But it hit me in a way that you hadn’t intended (I think!). Because He does still do miracles!
I’m typing this on a beautiful new Gateway computer. In a very few minutes, I’ll log off, and Barb and I will go into town in a car, deposit a large check in our bank account, and go shopping for some groceries we need. (And thanks for the guilt trip on that, Tris!! ;))
And the point is that every single thing I named in the last paragraph was an overt gift from a participant in this very thread! God worked through the kind and willing hearts of people to rescue us from a devastating situation, and we are grateful.
And it’s our task, Barb’s and mine, to proclaim His love. Yes, absolutely, He has expectations of His followers. But the key point to me is that people have to be convinced to follow Him before they can be convinced of His expectations.
In certain circumstances, like Billy Graham crusades, attendees are there because of the prick of conscience – they know themselves to be sinners, deep down, and are looking for a rescue – which Billy’s preaching leads them to find, through the grace of the Holy Spirit.
In a more “normal” situation – meeting a new acquaintance, posting on a message board, etc. – there is not that presumption of need present. And the people need to be convinced that there is something to the Christian message before they will be at all willing to listen to it.
How you do that convincing is by love. By showing them, in your words and deeds, that what makes you the kind of person they want to associate with is what He has done to reshape your life into that sort of person. By showing Christ to them – in my wife’s not-terribly-clear phrase quoted above, by being Christ to them – which she says, and I understood immediately to mean, “by doing what He would do (in your limited understanding) if He were physically present to that other person.”
And I thank God for every single one of you.
But to me, the “balance” that is spoken of above has to be tipped in the favor of love – because that was what Christ said was key both to the living of a moral life and to the effective presentation of His message. “You shall love your neighbor as yourself” he appropriated from Leviticus as the second great law, after total and radical love of God, which summarize the totality of the Law and prophets. “By this shall all men know that you are My disciples, that you love one another.”
In the Pizza Parlor thread, His4Ever noted that she is one of the people whose perspective on evangelism I had criticized, and suggested that all she was doing was to try to maintain that “balanced” presentation of the Truth. His, as gently and non-insultingly as I possibly can say this, the problem here that has caused you to be criticized and flamed repeatedly has been that in nearly everyone’s perception (Joe, Jersey and Scotti, understanding where you were coming from, being the sole exceptions, your presentation did not “maintain that balance” but appeared to be a legalistic indictment for sin. The fact that you appropriated Christ’s mercy to justify your own remarriage, while not appearing to extend it to others whose sins you flagged for them by reference to commandments, only made it worse.
I know everyone here as people in whom love shines through when the rubber hits the road, and I love every single one of you as much as my own imperfect nature allows me to. And what Jon said, that the differing perspectives that we each bring to the important work that God has given us to do, and that we each acknowledge our sinfulness and try to overcome it, the Lord being our help, means that this entire situation is almost ludicrous.
If one side could simply say, “God loves every one of us. Unconditionally. So much so that if any one of us were the sole person ever to have sinned, He would still give Himself for our sakes. His love is the key point that makes the Gospel to be Good News.” and the other side could say, “This is an imperfect world, in which people hate and hurt people, and He commands that that be stopped. Now. Forthwith. Sins need to be repented of – and then the new life be brought forth in us to live the lives He expects of us.” And both sides to say, “It’s not my place to judge whether somebody else is sinning. It’s my job to acknowledge my own sin, as the Holy Spirit convicts me of it. And then stop doing it.” – why, then, the world would be a much happier place, and more in line with what He wants.
And the Devil would then be renting out ice skates to his tenants. 
I feel I have to add something to what you’ve said just now, Poly. It’s not only H4E’s “legalistic indictment,” but also her application of that to groups she has zero actual knowledge of that really rankles.
Writing is your calling, dear!
Agreed, fellow Christian.
Happy new Year!
Agreed.
CJ, “the words of the prophets are written on the SDMB…” (Paul Simon, slightly abridged). 
Let’s give credit where it’s due, folks! I’m just a few clumsy fingers. As I said, here, more than anywhere else, I pray to God. If anything has touched you, it is only the words He has given me Whether others choose to believe it or not, that’s what I believe.:o
CJ
If He gives you the words, is it not your responsibility to get them before as many as possible? And if that provides you with a means of support, is that not His providing for you (“Seek ye first…and all these things will be added unto you…”)? Hmmm, maybe there’s a message there, and not exactly by Chance!
Hmm, well I believe I’ve done that and still gotten slammed. Even if I use the terms I think or I believe or this is my understanding or interpretationor my humble opinion I still get the same response so I guess it doesn’t work for me.
His, I’m looking forward to seeing your response to my long post at the bottom of page 7, which I think addresses what you just said. Would you be kind enough to oblige me in this?
I don’t know if I found the correct post or not. I read one almost at the bottom of page 7 but I didn’t see anything about using what you call qualifiers unless I’m totally stupid or missed something. 
::: looks around for nearest brick wall to hit head against :::
Poly, it looks to me like both sides are saying the same thing in different words. I know that might sound ludicrous, but I often read it as follows (obviously, gross oversimplifications abound):
Side 1 – I love you so much in Christ that I am willing to tell you (what I believe to be) the Truth in order that we may rejoice together in heaven forever.
Side 2 – We must stand up for love even if it means gently correcting those who might appear to portray hate as love. Love is the utmost, and in it is Christ.
Both sides: I am a sinner, and sin separates us from Christ’s love. The Holy Spirit is there to guide us and convict us of sin.
I really see quite a bit of common ground here. I don’t understand why there is so much disagreement when it looks to me like we’re just demonstrating two different ways to the same goal: Christ.
Our fireplace is right next to our computer and it sure does come in handy!
**
I just want to clarify that I do NOT feel that His4ever has been presenting a balanced presentation of the truth, which I hope I made clear in an earlier post to this thread. Not only that, but I thought that she was using a double standard…on the one hand using the “law of love” for herself and on the other hand using the “law” for others. I did not and DO not agree that this is Biblical.
BUT…
I DO think that she has started looking at things with a bit more perspective lately…and trying to change her presentation. I believe that we should give her the chance to DO SO. It is kind of hard to change when people aren’t allowing a person to DO so.
I guess it does help that I have NEVER doubted that she was doing what she was doing out of love…I just didn’t think she was going about it in the right way, or with the right perspective in reference to sin…hers and others.