For Christians.....a devotional

[Esprix]

Originally posted by His4ever

I don’t think the verses mean that we’re not to say anything about immoral behavior but I do think they mean we’re not to judge the person themselves.

Which, of course, is why I love the Christian but hate Christianity. :rolleyes:

… there are Scriptures… that tell us (I’m speaking of Christians) that if a person claims to be a brother (fellow Christian), and yet is living in sinful bahavior (adultery, theievery, Xiality, etc.) then we’re not supposed to fellowship with them.

You must be a true light of inspiration to any gay or lesbian people in your congregation.

It also leads me to be curious why you care about sin in non-Christians. Don’t you have enough to worry about in your own house of worship? I’m sure sin is rampant everywhere you turn.

… I personally think that if God says somethings wrong in His word, then certainly we have the responsibility to be able to point that out.

Well, why do you think everyone was helpfully pointing out your own sin to you? And you took umbrage! The nerve! We were only being helpful like the Good Book tells us to be!

Really - some people are so ungrateful to the love we show them!

Esprix

[Esprix]

Originally posted by Joe_Cool

Sounds like you’re calling the kettle black, my friend.

When you finally become completely free from sin yourself, then I’ll look forward to more of your Biblical interpretations. In the meantime, you’re both the pot and the kettle, as far as I’m concerned.

Esprix

[Esprix]

Originally posted by lel

Esprix, the next time that I get into blind devotion, acceptance without question, “hate the sin love the sinner,” condemnation and lies (I can’t say that the Bible isn’t contradictory, unfortunately), feel free to remind me what Christianity should be: the opposite.

Not a problem, although other more knowledgeable posters herein would probably beat me to the punch. You’re not the one that needs the reminding, however…

Esprix

[Triskadecamus]

OK, here is my philosophy: (I don’t do this often, so pay attention.) This is how I feel about sin, and Christianity.

Folks sin.

I don’t like that fact, but they do it anyway.

But let’s not be general about this.

People shop. They do it a lot. They don’t want to hear that that is a sin. But it is, whether they want to believe it or not. It’s not just obtaining necessities. It’s not just comparing costs. It isn’t just some social custom thing, and the fact that the prohibition against it was in the Old Testament doesn’t mean that Christians are free to sin in this way. The Ten Commandments are still the laws of God. You shop; you are willfully sinning. You may have all sorts of reasons why you do it, but you are only fooling yourself, and if you don’t face your sins, you are living a life in direct disobedience to the Lord.

Now, are shoppers going to Hell?

Well, if you are a legalist, you cannot deny that it seems as if they are unrepentant sinners, defiant in their violation of the Lord’s law. But you know what? I am not going to tell them that they are placing themselves beyond the love of the Lord, Jesus. I am not going to put myself above them simply because I don’t shop. I don’t tell them that because I am just another sinner, singing hosannas because the Lord Jesus has delivered me from the bondage of my sins. I am just too darned happy that sin is not the death of man. Jesus is the life of all that let Him love them. He doesn’t need me to explain sin to them; He needs me to explain that CJ is His much beloved child, precious to Him, and a delight to His eternal spirit.

Why do I need to do that? Because for some reason, she believed a bunch of people who told her that there were some limits on the divine love of God. She seems to be coming away from that feeling, and I bet there are folks dancin’ happy dances in Heaven, because of it. I am not here to keep other people from sinning. I am here to give the love in me to everyone I can reach. It isn’t much. I wish I could do more, but you see saving souls is just not within my reach. I can only give human love.

If I concern myself with the sins of men, there is never going to be a single soul to whom I can try to give the love that God has shown to me. So, I will love sinners. There are so many of them that it keeps me busy. And if I meet a saint, or two along the way, I will be sure to let them know, and let the world know, that they are way cool! I will try to be more like they are, too.

Did I mention my friend James? He is a saint. His mother was one too! I swear the light of God shown from that woman, wherever she went. Anyway, James never asks me about my sins, nor did his mother. She did mention, once that she thought I was doing the Lord’s work. I was happier in that moment than in most of my life. James told me I needed to work harder. He was right. But I was not ashamed by it. I decided to try to work harder.

Anyway, to make a point, Sin is not the point. Everyone sins, and there are no differences among sins. Sin is death. But the Lord is life, and He is greater than Sin. So, you should stop sinning. I should stop sinning. But the Lord is greater than our sins, either of us. And we should learn to trust Him, and do what He said were the most important things. Love the Lord our God with all our hearts, and all our souls. And to love our neighbors as ourselves.

He will take care of the rest.

Telling someone your legalist opinions of the state of their soul, in regards to its sinfulness, or salvation is not your office. And however well intended, and philosophically well grounded, and scripturaly supported it might be, it is not loving to tell someone that their sins are going to prevent their salvation, but yours sins are not. It’s pride, it’s self righteousness, and it’s just plain mean.

If you really want to impress someone with the qualities of sinlessness, and spiritual purity, you might try living a life without sin, and letting the world just see how great thou art. The rest of us are going to just have to struggle along, seeking the forgiveness of the Lord, and the love of His blessed Children on the earth.

Tris

[Joe_Cool]

You know, it’s amazing the way so many non-Christian people bash His4ever for going into threads by, for, and about homosexuals and saying “this is a sin,” but think nothing of going from thread to thread where Christians are discussing, for example, how Christians should treat each other, and add nothing but mockery, hostility, and sarcasm.

coughhypocritescough

Gosh, if I didn’t know that you guys were above all that, I might think you held to a double standard. But of course you are better than that. :rolleyes:

You know, it weakens your moral highground when you do the very thing that you’re slamming somebody else for.

Of course, perhaps I’m mistaken. I was under the impression that this thread title began with “For Christians…”

[Joe_Cool]

*Originally posted by Esprix *
**When you finally become completely free from sin yourself, then I’ll look forward to more of your Biblical interpretations. In the meantime, you’re both the pot and the kettle, as far as I’m concerned.

Esprix **

Oh, Zing! You got me again! Next time I’m talking to you, I’m sure that I’ll eagerly anticipate your input.

[Scotticher]

*Originally posted by Libertarian *
**You’re welcome. And when I hear her say what the tax collector said, instead of what the Pharisee said, then she will have changed her image for me as well. **

I am not asking for you to forget everything she has ever said or done. I am asking you to extend the love of Christ and give her a chance to prove that she has learned and grown.

She has changed her image for me because she has changed, already, the way she is responding to the questons.

Should you not extend to HER the same grace you show to the rest of us sinners?

That is all I ask, really.

And I am so far behind in this thread that I will probably NEVER catch up. But I want His4ever to know that I appreciate that she has thought about things and that she appears to have realized that perhaps she wasn’t presenting her views the way she really wanted to.

[lel]

*Originally posted by Esprix *
**Not a problem, although other more knowledgeable posters herein would probably beat me to the punch. You’re not the one that needs the reminding, however…

Esprix **

On the contrary, I am still the most vile of sinners.

[reprise]

Gosh, if I didn’t know that you guys were above all that, I might think you held to a double standard. But of course you are better than that.

I’m sorry Joe, this particular argument doesn’t fly. I don’t think that I am in some way “superior” to those who believe in God, Jesus, Allah, Joseph Smith, Buddha, Vishnue, L.Ron Hubbard, etc.

When I ask you what it is about YOUR particular faith which makes you believe that there is a deity, then I’m asking a genuine question. I’m asking about why YOU believe what you believe. Not about why Polycarp has faith. Not about why Libertarian has faith. Not about why Guinistasia has faith. Not about why Scotticher has faith.

I understand that there are some atheists on this board who love “Christian baiting”. I’m not one of them. It takes an awful lot for me to ask people questions about their faith, because I believe - quite simply - that I don’t have the right to try to make other people “wrong” (that may be the ONLY positive thing I ever learned in my entire time as a Scientologist).

I ask a LOT of questions about people’s faith. I hope they don’t normally come across as challenges. ATM my daughters are extremely interested in the history of Judaism. I have been told by those members of this board who are Jewish that it would not be at all offensive if we asked to attend the Passover siddah because the ceremony dictates that a gentile (that would be us) should be present to confirm the absence of the “blood libel”.

Something I PRESUMED would be offensive is not offensive at all under Judaic law. And I would not have even known that unless I’d been prepared to post a thread on this messageboard revealing my ignorance.

I don’t know which atheists you have encountered in your lifetime that you seem to presume we all put shit on your beliefs. They must be pretty sad people if you’ve come away with a negative view of atheists.

I love the architecture of churches. I LOVE the stillness. I LOVE the hymns. I love the UNCONDITIONAL ACCEPTANCE which is shown towards most people in my country.

There is not a single church in my nation in which I have ever felt unwelcome. There are - however - been many people I’ve encountered in my life who would like to convince me that because I have “sinned” I am not welcome in their church. I don’t believe ther is a God, and I’m sure as shit convinced that if there was He wouldn’t give voice to his wishes through those who can only judge.

[Esprix]

Originally posted by Joe_Cool

Oh, Zing! You got me again! Next time I’m talking to you, I’m sure that I’ll eagerly anticipate your input.

Yes, heaven forfend someone respond to something posted on a public message board if you’re not directly talking to them. :rolleyes:

Esprix

[Briny_Deep]

Tris: OK, I’ll bite. What’s the OT prohibition on shopping?

I’ve encountered a literalist or two who believes all paper money is sinful (let alone credit); God said to use gold and silver. Is this what you’re getting at? Sorry for the hijack.

[tracer]

*Originally posted by masonite *
I’ve encountered a literalist or two who believes all paper money is sinful (let alone credit); God said to use gold and silver.

Really? Where do the scriptures say that?

[reprise]

Of course, perhaps I’m mistaken. I was under the impression that this thread title began with “For Christians…”

If it was only “preaching to the choir”, what would be the point of this thread?

There are quite a few fundamentalist Christians on this board who seem to see their “mission in life” as being clocking up fly-buy points for conversions.

If you are trying to say to me that in a thread entitled “for Christians” my input is not welcome, then I would say to you that you arw are practising precisely the same kind of separatism which YOUR LORD warned you against.

Gee, having seen the examples of Poly, and Scotti, and Lib, and Guin, I might have believed this Christianity deal was worth exploring. Thank you for telling me - on no uncertain terms - that I’m not “worthy”.

[Triskadecamus]

Exodus: 20,17 KJV

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.

[Joe_Cool]

*Originally posted by reprise *
**When I ask you what it is about YOUR particular faith which makes you believe that there is a deity, then I’m asking a genuine question. I’m asking about why YOU believe what you believe. Not about why Polycarp has faith. Not about why Libertarian has faith. Not about why Guinistasia has faith. Not about why Scotticher has faith.

I understand that there are some atheists on this board who love “Christian baiting”. I’m not one of them. It takes an awful lot for me to ask people questions about their faith, because I believe - quite simply - that I don’t have the right to try to make other people “wrong” (that may be the ONLY positive thing I ever learned in my entire time as a Scientologist).**

You misunderstand me (I guess I wasn’t all that clear). I’m not talking about you, and I’m not talking about honest questions about faith. I enjoy answering honest questions about my beliefs, even when they’re tough ones. So [sub][Sgt. Hulka from “Stripes”][/sub] Lighten up, Francis.

If it was only “preaching to the choir”, what would be the point of this thread?

Well, actually the point of the thread was to share with her fellow Christians a devotional that His4ever found poignant and inspiring. Not to win converts.

No, I’m talking about the baiting. About individuals who, after complaining about how she comes in and posts where she isn’t wanted, stalk His4ever (and, it seems, me) from thread to thread, ready to jump in with a dismissive, mocking, or just plain rude comment with no content beyond the rudeness of it.

For example…

Originally posted by Esprix
**Yes, heaven forfend someone respond to something posted on a public message board if you’re not directly talking to them.

Esprix**

Excellent point! So may we assume you’ll hold firmly to your ideals and extend the same courtesy that you demand, even when it’s His4ever expressing herself on one of your gay threads, rather than yourself, who will reap the benefits?

[Joe_Cool]

*Originally posted by Triskadecamus *
**Exodus: 20,17 KJV

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s. **

That’s really stretching.

[lel]

*Originally posted by reprise *
**
If you are trying to say to me that in a thread entitled “for Christians” my input is not welcome, then I would say to you that you arw are practising precisely the same kind of separatism which YOUR LORD warned you against.

Gee, having seen the examples of Poly, and Scotti, and Lib, and Guin, I might have believed this Christianity deal was worth exploring. Thank you for telling me - on no uncertain terms - that I’m not “worthy”. **

Actually, reprise, I believe that there are boards on the web (I’m looking again) that have areas which are reserved for Christians only. I have no clear opinions as to what I believe about that, but at any rate, there’s no Christians-only forums here.

As for the examples, don’t look at anyone here on earth. Look at Christ, not Christians. At least in my experience, I learn more when looking at Christ.

[Joe_Cool]

*Originally posted by reprise *
**If you are trying to say to me that in a thread entitled “for Christians” my input is not welcome, then I would say to you that you arw are practising precisely the same kind of separatism which YOUR LORD warned you against.

Gee, having seen the examples of Poly, and Scotti, and Lib, and Guin, I might have believed this Christianity deal was worth exploring. Thank you for telling me - on no uncertain terms - that I’m not “worthy”. **

And even if I wanted input from Christians, it has nothing to do with who is “worthy”. It certainly has nothing to do with whether you are “worthy” of being a Christian. It is all about whose input I want in a particular situation. It would mean that I wanted input from people who understand my perspective and who understands what I’m talking about, more than a non-Christian would.

If I want to know what my wife thinks about whether we should let our daughter stay up to watch a movie, it doesn’t mean that you aren’t worthy to venture an opinion. It means that she is my family, she is the child’s mother, and hers is the opinion I want.

You really need to relax. Yeesh.

[Triskadecamus]

Joe Cool says:

That’s really stretching.

No, it isn’t.

Covet means to look upon with desire. Spending the day looking upon things with desire is coveting. You haven’t made much effort to interpret literal definitions of sins other than shopping. Why do you want to defend this sin?

Perhaps you should consider the possibility that your sins are no different than the sins of lying, thieving, drug addicted, gay, atheist prostitutes. Sin is sin. And the Lord Jesus is greater than sin. Picking and choosing which sins are acceptable among Christians in fellowship is simply self righteousness. If you are not willing to speak out against your fellow church members for shopping, you obviously do accept that continuing in a life of sin does not mean that they are not beloved Children of the Lord. So, get your mind around this concept: The difference between the two is that you have a preference for some sins, and you want your favorite sins to be acceptable.

I will not glorify my own sins with a recitation of their number. But that number is far greater than zero. And tomorrow is another day. I will need forgiveness, again. I won’t have time to hate the sins of other sinners, because I will be too busy trying to love my brothers as my Lord commanded me. My brothers include a lot of real assholes, you know. But, the Lord forgives them, so I must forgive them too.

Tris

[reprise]

lel, my love (and you DO know that I love you to bits), I was baptised into the Catholic Church, confirmed into the Anglican Church, and in the meantime have run the gauntlet between every “fringe-dweller” church you can imagine (I’m not trying to shove this down your throat, but I’m the only board member who ADMITS to being a former Scientologist).

I understand that you might want to discuss your beliefs, opinions, doubts about God with other people who self-identify as Christians - and you couldn’t ask for less judgemental people with whom to discuss that issue that Poly, Scotti, and Lib.

It seems like I have badly expressed the fact that those people make me feel welcome to ask questions about their faith.

I’m so sorry lel. I thought that were both on a learning curve from these people who LIVE their faith. If you think that in some way I was saying that you are not WORTHY, then I have obviously miscommunicated and I should choose my words more carefully in future.