For Christians.....a devotional

Great Debates
301

Lady of the Lake, that is the precise issue I’ve wrestled with and why I cannot bring myself to believe in such a God, even though I will challenge anyone who says I’m not a Christian. I cannot believe that a homosexual who loves his partner is inherently worse than a man who beats his wife, yet that’s what I feel some people think I must believe.

His4Ever, you said

I need to make two points, and I’ll try to do this as gently as possible. Please understand this is not being done to hurt you, but to tell you why I disagree. First, by those standards, you have been “living in sinful behaviour”. Should we then disfellowship you? Second, I’ve been “disfellowshipped” after a fashion. Rather than leave me with a desire to repent, it left me with a desire never to associate with such people again. I hardened my heart and turned away. Do you really want people to do that to Christ? Third, Levi was a tax collector who was about as bad a sinner as you could be and still be Jewish in Jesus’ time, yet Christ called him to be a disciple. As I was checking my facts on this, I also came across Mark 2:15-17:

There are those of us in the world who wonder if anyone can love us, who believe we are unworthy of love. For the first 20-odd years of my life, that applied to simple human love, such as that shared between husband and wife. If we are not worthy of human love, how can we possibly be worthy of God’s love? Fortunately, God transcends the possible, which I think is one of the things which drives atheists nuts! :wink: You want judgement and condemnation? I’m a real pro at that. I condemn myself for not being able to protect my best friend better, for not loving my neighbor as myself, including the twit who wouldn’t let me make a left turn earlier, and for a long list of sins, including not finding a job 10 seconds after I was laid off. There’s a reason I like the story of the Samaritan woman at the well. It’s because I know what it’s like to go out of my way to avoid crowds because the crowd would only condemn me. Remember, Christ met her at midday, when the custom was to draw water at sunrise or sunset. She was also, apparently, the only one there.

I known people who have been driven away from Christianity in real life. Does this mean God doesn’t want them? My fingers are trembling as I type this, because if God doesn’t want them, then why would he want me? I’m still more used to being unwanted than wanted, and I’m too blasted weird to be popular, and I’m not always sure I’m useful.

We are, I think, after different flocks. In my case some of them are stuck halfway up (or down!) cliffs, and I think one or two of them may have got stuck in trees!:wink: Saying to a sheep halfway up a tree “Get down here at once! You’re in deep trouble!” isn’t going to work. Figuring out how it got there, working out how to get it down, then climbing up and doing whatever it takes to herd it safely back to the flock might. It takes time, effort, and sometimes more than one person. (Hey, Libertarian! You got a block and tackle I could use?) There are also some I may never be able to get down on my own – why should they come down? They’ve got a nice view, lots of nice green leaves, and besides, there are wolves down there! I still have to make the effort, even if, a bit like the movie Babe, I wind up trying to convince them that those aren’t wolves, just the Shepherd’s dogs, and they don’t mean any harm. As for getting down from the cliff, this sheep has gotten herself into some positions which might even try God’s imagination! (Oh no! CJ’s at it again! Don’t tell me she’s going to need another miracle!;))

Anyway, I don’t know if this ramble has made any sense, especially that last paragraph. I’ve also been brought to tears by this thread, and I’ve wondered about my effectiveness as a Christian as well. I do what I feel called to do, yet I realize my witness is vastly different from some other Christians. My approach to judgement is more, “Yes, you sinned. . . . Do you now understand why you sinned? . . . Are you prepared to use that understanding not to sin that way again?” I know I’m less likely to repeat a mistake in everything from singing to programming to spiritual growth if I know why I made it, i.e. “OK, last time we sang this it was an A flat; this time it’s an A natural. That’s why I keep missing that note.” That’s why I believe in the value of understanding – not as a copout or a way of making excuses, but as a way of preventing future sin. Let me give you one last example. As I’ve mentioned, I’ve taught Sunday School at times. One morning, as we were walking from one building to another, one of the little boys yelled, “Last one back is a rotten egg!” and all the kids started running. Sure enough, one little girl tripped and skinned her knee. When we got back to the Sunday school room, I sat down with the little boy, and explained to him that, while he didn’t push her, she would not have started running if he hadn’t started it. When I was sure he got it (he was about 7 years old), I asked him to apologize to her, and I’ve seen enough insincere apologies in my day to realize this was a sincere one, unlike the one he would have made if he’d simply been ordered to apologize. Yes, there were issues involving the girl’s responsiblity for her injuries because she didn’t have to start running, but that is a different and more common story. Understanding, in my experience can lead to a truer and more lasting repentance than mere confession, even if it’s harder and takes more time.

Thanks for bearing with me,
CJ

302

CJ wrote:

Whatever I have I will share with you, my dear. :slight_smile: How’s your cold? Are you feeling any better?

303

I tried to laugh and wound up coughing. The answer’s no. :frowning: Send me an e-mail or call me if you like.

A beseiged
CJ’

Ba-a-a-ah!

304

Have you heard of Granny Clampett’s miracle cold cure? I can send you some if you like. Just drink one swig three times a day after meals. In a week to ten days, you will be cured! :smiley:

(Unless you smoke, in which case it could take longer.)

305

Joe, the problem that I see with that is that it sounds like people would be better off if we didn’t try to educate them. If they are ignorant of the Christ, they remain uncondemned. I can just see the “heathens” waving me away and shouting, “Don’t do me any favors!” (I’m not saying that we shouldn’t teach others – just that it does set up a sort of paradox.

As for “the pot calling the kettle black,” I think that we are all pretty much the same set of pots and kettles. We all have our dings and dents, our faults and shortcomings; and all have the potential for being quite useful.

His4ever, thanks for your response. I think that I understand what you are saying about judging the behavior and not the person. But I’m not very good at actually drawing a line between the two. It seems that every time I judge someone’s behavior or words, I end up actually judging that person as “worthy” or “unworthy.”

I make this mistake so frequently that for me it is a sin. If I were to be put out of fellowship because I have sinned, I would be in and out so much that people would forget whether they were supposed to speak to me or not. Besides, we can’t just put someone’s behavior out of the fellowship without putting the person out.

I wouldn’t want anyone to repent just because they are lonely or because it is my opinion or my interpretation that they are wrong. Then they would be depending too much on what I and others believe and think and feel.

To “educate” means to draw out. As a teacher, I learned quickly that I taught better by getting my students to think for themselves than by just giving them a lot of reading assignments.

I’m sorry that you are short on time but I had rather hear your opinions than follow links to someone else’s ideas.

It is difficult to tell you that I think that you come across as sometimes being judgmental of people without being judgmental myself! Mea culpa! :smack:

(sigh)

What do you think?

Pax

306

The parallel thread over on the Pizza Parlor contiunes to turn up good stuff worth bringing into the mix here. Joey Carmen, whom I would have described as a strong evangelical, had this to say about his own position:

And one comment he made illuminated the issue for me very strongly. I’d like to ask Joe Cool and perhaps His4Ever to read and comment on this:

307

CJ. I love weird people. There’s always room at this lunch table.

308

CJ, this was a wonderful post - even though I’m now stuck with the bizarre image of flying sheep.

309

It’s obvious that to some people I come across as judgmental. Does you telling me that make you judgmental? :confused: Hmm, I sure don’t know! Anyway, I don’t mean to be that way. I think there may be a lot of misunderstanding going on. Also, someone saying someone else is being judgmental doesn’t necessarily make it so. I don’t always say what people like to hear, so in their mind I’m judgmental. I’m just trying to be true to the Lord and His word, that’s all.

310

Hmmm, he sounds like he’s got a handle on it, though I may be a little unsure of everything he’s saying.

311

Yes, of course, I should have seen that the opinions of those who agree with her could somehow change the printed ink on the paper.

Love
Leroy

312

From the (with bolding by Monty) “answering Islam” site H4E posted:

The awful irony of it.

313

It seems to me that he’s saying he takes a moderate position on witnessing. This looks about right as a scale from conservative to liberal:

Oswald Chambers:

Joey Carmen:

Skulldigger:

There’s quite a difference.

314

Of course they can!:smiley:

Seriously though, what does judging accomplish? What does talks about fire and brimstone accomplish? Especially when talking to other Christians, who are living differently (in sin in your eyes), but believe they are living righteously?

In the end the only one who’s going to judge is God, so it matters not what our fellow man/woman says about it. Judging just leads to bad feelings in my opinion-no matter what the good intentions are.

315

To follow up: How do you convince someone who thinks they are living righteously, even if you believe they are not? A mound of bible qoutes and telling them they are going to hell isn’t going to change the feeling in their heart.

316

Esprix, the next time that I get into blind devotion, acceptance without question, “hate the sin love the sinner,” condemnation and lies (I can’t say that the Bible isn’t contradictory, unfortunately), feel free to remind me what Christianity should be: the opposite.

Unfortunately, this often brings them, and many of those around them, to completely reject Christianity. Not everyone will accept it, but I have seen way too many who have been disfellowshipped and instead of repentance, go on to reject Christ. I wish that it were not so.

In my opinion, the approaches of “speaking the truth in love” and “being loving no matter what” both have their place in Christian witnessing. It’s a matter of really getting to know to whom the message is being spread – some will react to being told that they are sinners, some will react to love. On the SDMB, I find that the “being loving no matter what” message is often (but not always) more resonant. In other places, “speaking the truth in love” resonates more. God made us all different, and different people react to different things in different ways.

317

So are you saying that we should disregard what the Bible tells us to do CJ? How is it sinful to do what is commanded of us? Is it God that we have to please or man?

We do not want people to turn from Christ, but if they choose to do so, it is not because what the Bible says is wrong, it is because worldly things are more important than God to them.

Sometimes people believe they can ‘have their cake and eat it too’. If you cannot give up something that is considered sinful even though it is commanded of you, then it is obvious what it more important. Not everything will always work out to benefit the individual. Once the truth is known, they are to do as they wish. It’s out of your hands.
What you are not realizing is that the tax collector you speak of was not a follower when Jesus called him. He became a follower. The passage that you speak of: Mark 2:15-17, does not speak of men who were followers, they were men that Jesus was trying to show the way. Do you see the difference?
Men who don’t know the way need to be taught. Men who do know the way but choose to be wicked or sinful, but call themselves brothers, should not be associated with.

Paul said:
1 Cor 4:14---- I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.
Paul was writing to a church who was bragging about how tolerant they were. Paul is chastizing the church for being too tolerant

1 Cor 5:11-13— But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
{12} What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
{13} God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked man from among you.”

I am a firm believer that the Bible was given to us from God. 2 Tim 3:16— All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

2 Pet 1:20---- Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation.

Rev 1:3---- Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

I don’t take away from it, and I don’t add to it.
John 7:18— He who speaks on his own does so to gain honor for himself, but he who works for the honor of the one who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him.

When someone asks a Bible question or a Christianity question, they will get a Biblical answer. It may not be the answer they like, but I stand firm in what I believe and I am not about to change it because someone thinks it’s immoral.
Mat 10:22 All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

I see nothing wrong with asking questions and answering questions on a message board, rather it be with christians or non-christians.
My problem is that we have a bunch of christians on the board trying to say, “you’re wrong, you are a bad christian.” The Bible specifically says not to do this with your brother.

1 Cor 6:1-3 If any of you has a dispute with another, dare he take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the saints?
{2} Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases?
{3} Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!

I don’t take away from it, and I don’t add to it.
John 7:18— He who speaks on his own does so to gain honor for himself, but he who works for the honor of the one who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him.

When someone asks a Bible question or a Christianity question, they will get a Biblical answer. It may not be the answer they like, but I stand firm in what I believe and I am not about to change it because someone thinks it’s immoral.
Mat 10:22 All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
Keep in mind that the devil will tell you sweet things to turn you away from God. He will tell you things that sound reasonable. He knows how to manipulate silly humans. Flase profits will obviously not be men of God. They will be inspired by the devil. To be quite honest, false profits may not even know that they are misguiding people. They may not be leading a godly life which may have led them astray. If they were led astray by thier ungodlyness, their truth will not be the truth of God, but the truth that the ungodly want to hear.
Anything can sound reasonable if you want it to. I have done it.
“Well, no one will know” or “everyone else thinks it’s ok, so it must be. 10,000 people can’t be wrong” or (you get the idea)

2 Pet 2:1-4 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them–bringing swift destruction on themselves.
{2} Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.
{3} In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping. {4} For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment;

Once upon a time I use to think that if we just wouldn’t tell anyone about God, they wouldn’t be held accountable. But the people who know would have to stand before God one day, and answer to HIM.
Also I realized that eventually something would leak leak out, people would get curious, and naturally, we would seek out to find what is being hidden. God will reveal Himself somehow.

LOVE. Yes, it is VERY important. But always remember, there is more than one side to a story.

I would be a bad person if I did not tell you the consequences of your actions, right?
I would not force you to do anything, but you must be informed.

318

I will repeat again for the umpteenth time, as it always seems to bear repeating in these discussions:

If those of faith would more often pretext their posts with the simple phrases “I believe…” or “I think…” or “It’s my understanding or interpretation that…” then there would be a lot less confrontational attitudes expressed towards them. By not using such qualifiers, it sets you up to sound judgemental, condemning and holier-than-thou.

IMHO, that is. Always seems to work for me (not that I haven’t forgotten from time to time). Just my little piece of advice.

Esprix

319

What a difference a week makes…

A week ago we were all able to but aside our personal beliefs and dogma to assist a human being who was in need. We were just human beings trying to do something nice for one of our own.

Some people - who happen to be Christians - called it a miracle and example of God’s love in action. I don’t believe in “God” so I don’t see it that way. I think that we belong to one of the most exceptional communities on this planet and that the majority of members of this messageboard happen to give a shit about other people.

And do you know what I LOVE about this community? I love the fact that Poly can see the support he received from this community as an affirmation of his faith; that I can perceive it as a great example of the fact that you can do nice things for other people just because you want to, and not because you’re afraid that some divine being is keeping score.

The last couple of weeks have shattered some assumptions I held about fundamentalist Christians - I’d like to think that, in turn, some of the assumptions which some fundamentalist Christians hold about us heathens have also been challenged.

And maybe that is the TRUE miracle in this situation - that because we were able to work towards a common goal I no longer feel like I’m “being a bitch” or “picking on the Christians” when I ask you genuine questions about your faith.

I’ll probably go to my death not believing in your God or the divinity of Jesus, but I’ll always be incredibly grateful for having shared your experience of your deity. You can call it God, I call it humanity - as long as it keeps happening, whatever we call it, we’re all going to be OK.

320

All Christians? Of course not. But I do see quite a few in this thread that do. And the Bible itself is chocked full of it, and that’s purported to be the “inerrant Word of God.”

And of course some non-Christians have the same flaws - and I don’t hang out with them, either.

Esprix